Ep. 487 Why Aging Isn’t the Problem, It’s the Messaging with Caroline Paul
- Team Cynthia
- Jul 29
- 38 min read
I am thrilled to have Caroline Paul joining me today. She is a New York Times bestselling author, a TEDx speaker, and a longtime member of the Writers Grotto.
In our discussion, we address the issue of societal messaging about aging, the importance of bravery and resilience, and how invisibility can become a superpower as we age. We explore gender differences and the early conditioning that shapes how boys and girls perceive themselves, the power of awe for brain support, and the benefits of remaining curious and open-minded. We examine the value of novelty and neuroplasticity and unpack the five pillars of fulfilling aging: community health, new experiences, a sense of purpose, and a positive mindset about aging. Caroline also delves into her years as a firefighter, sharing how she practices being present despite being an adrenaline junkie, as well as the importance of rest and recovery.
I thoroughly enjoyed today’s invaluable conversation with Caroline, and I know you will love it too!
IN THIS EPISODE, YOU WILL LEARN:
The types of negative messaging women receive about aging
The health benefits of getting outside and being physically active
Caroline shares some of her experiences as a firefighter
The importance of teaching girls about bravery
The value of being outside and engaging in activities that evoke awe
How novelty, health, community, purpose, and a positive view of aging can help you maintain a fulfilling life
Some practical advice for aging well
How neuroplasticity and lifelong learning can improve your cognitive and physical health
The importance of challenging societal norms and embracing adventure
“If you take a walk in green space and come back, you test better on cognitive tests because your brain is much more rested.”
– Caroline Paul
Connect with Cynthia Thurlow
Follow on Twitter
Check out Cynthia’s website
Submit your questions to support@cynthiathurlow.com
Connect with Caroline Paul
On her website
Caroline’s latest book, Tough Broad
Transcript:
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Cynthia Thurlow: [00:00:02] Welcome to Everyday Wellness Podcast. I'm your host, Nurse Practitioner Cynthia Thurlow. This podcast is designed to educate, empower and inspire you to achieve your health and wellness goals. My goal and intent is to provide you with the best content and conversations from leaders in the health and wellness industry each week and impact over a million lives.
[00:00:29] Today, I had the honor of connecting with Caroline Paul. She's a New York times bestselling author, TEDx speaker, author, and a longtime member of The Writers Grotto. Today, we spoke about societal messaging on aging and why it's so problematic, why our invisibility as we age is a superpower, specific views on aging, why fear is both intriguing and bravery and resilience and confidence are so important? Key gender differences about the conditioning related to how boys and girls view themselves.
[00:01:02] The impact of her years as a firefighter. How she practices being present as an adrenaline junkie. The impact of awe and why it is so important for supporting our brains and becoming more curious and open minded. The impact of novelty, neuroplasticity, the five pillars of fulfilling aging, including community, health, novelty, purpose, and a strong positive mindset about aging itself. And lastly, how she embraces recovery and rest.
[00:01:34] This is an invaluable conversation with Caroline, one I thoroughly enjoyed and I know you will as well.
[00:01:42] Well, Caroline, I've been so looking forward to this conversation. Welcome to the podcast.
Caroline Paul: [00:01:46] Thank you, Cynthia. I'm looking forward to this talk.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:01:49] I think your work is really very, very important and vital, largely because I think societal messaging, especially for women, is hugely problematic. What do you think are some of the big contributors to our society's perspective about women in the aging process? And I'm talking about the constellation of messages we receive on social media, the social conditioning we have between genders, all of these things that impact the way that we perceive ourselves as we are navigating the aging process.
Caroline Paul: [00:02:18] I mean, our currency has always been our looks and our reproductive ability and our empathetic sort of, which is probably driven often by hormones which change. So, all that which we are valued for and which we value ourselves for start changing later in life. And so, we're dropped into this gray area where we don't know our own script anymore. There isn't really one for us.
[00:02:49] And so, the effect is that women start talking about feeling invisible. It's funny, this book has a lot of science in it, but I do not back up. I don't feel the need to back up with research any of these messages. I think as soon as I start talking about them, women of a certain age, and it actually is pretty young, like 30s, it's shocking. I start nodding.
[00:03:08] So, we start feeling invisible at a certain age. And then the messaging gets pretty clear. However, it's not that someone is actually trumpeting this, obviously, it's just embedded in all the media and the social cues and our familial relations, which is basically that we have to watch out for our breaking bones, we're on a cognitive decline, and we're boring.
[00:03:36] Men don't get this message, by the way. Aging can be difficult for men too. I'm not saying, and I'm not an expert, so I don't know exactly, but I do know that I see men out there doing a lot of things, opening up their life even as they age, where what began to be clear to me and when I was on my own aging journey.
[00:03:57] So, I was 55, and I was wondering what my own next stage was going to be. And I kept seeing men doing the things that I do outside, which is surfing, biking, electric skateboarding, but I didn't see any women my age. And I started to wonder, “Am I doing something wrong? Is this something I should be pulling back on? Should I be narrowing my life?” And that's where I went on really a quest that is research based, but also, I interview a lot of women on this next stage.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:04:31] Incredible women like things that I was reading to my husband as I was reading to your book. Women in their 60s, 70s, and beyond that were just doing incredible physical feats plus the addition of being out in nature, being out in the outdoors, and how critically important that is. And I would echo a lot of what you're saying, I think, because, I started in medicine in the ER and then gravitated towards cardiology. And I kept wondering, like my women patients, female patients that were in their 40s and 50s, there were a constellation of physical, emotional, psychological shifts that were occurring. I would say the vast majority of them were deeply troubled with the fact that there weren't enough answers. There wasn't enough information. There wasn't enough focus on the changes that were happening.
[00:05:18] In fact, I myself, my wonderful physician that I went to see was telling me, “Weight gain is a normal function of aging.” What you're experiencing, they normalize a lot of the experiences that we go through without actually providing antidotes to augment a lot of what's changing in our lives. And so, when I think about the messaging around aging, and I'm the mother of all boys, so I don't have daughters, but I do have nieces. And because I've had boys, I've always made an effort to be a very physically active mom. I was physically active to begin with, but even more so, like more adventurous types of vacations. And I'm sure we'll probably talk about this, because I never wanted my boys to look at me and think that I was fragile, that I was not capable of keeping up with them, now they are. And so, keeping up with them is probably not--
[00:06:11] If I keep up with them, it's in a different endeavor. But I think for many, many people, we're just kind of conditioned to believe that we're going to slow down, that we're going to gain weight, that we're going to be less relevant. And I think the one thing that I have found about being a menopausal female is that I feel like in many instances, were given the opportunity to really find our voice, those people pleasing tendencies that so many of us ascribe to throughout may, perhaps our younger years start to fall away and we step into an awareness and a perspective that I think we're truly stepping into the people we’re always meant to be, but we're not as encumbered with pleasing everyone around us.
Caroline Paul: [00:06:47] Right. Because invisibility is a superpower. It can be. If you're going to underestimate us, we'll just take advantage of that space. “No one's paying attention? Okay, let's go do what we want.” This is partly as you know chemical, it's endocrine based. It's not that we're shedding completely, but we're redirecting, for instance, all those empathetic things that we are so good at towards ourselves.
[00:07:16] And in fact, Cynthia, this was probably-- I was shocked constantly in my book when I did the research and when I went out there and experienced these things and applied the research. But one of the big things that shocked me was that everyone who was older than me at the time said “The 60s were their favorite decade.” I was like “What? Hold up.” We're told that the 20s, the 30s, the 40s, are supposed to be the things that you know are truly us, but in fact, no, the 60s. And this is why I'm so evangelical about the fact that we really need to open up our lives because it's such a perfect time for us not just physiologically, biologically, but it is, but just situationally, like we are freer because our kids are probably out of the house if we have them. Our careers, we've now established ourselves. If we're lucky, there's all this. And we're still healthy and fit and physically able.
[00:08:18] Cynthia, I'd love to just say initially that when I was doing the research, Covid happened, so I couldn't do my interviews, which I was just throwing myself out there like a BASE jumper, which I am not, but I did interview and just free falling. And then I was going to throw my parachute whenever and see what happened, but Covid hit, so I had to be inside. So, I did a lot of research on fulfilling aging. And one of the first things I hit upon which blew my mind right away and really is the foundation of this book, is that the way we look at our own aging predicts how well we age. So, if you have a negative view of your own aging, you have a higher chance of mental decline, of heart issues.
[00:09:04] And if you have a positive view, not just a positive view, but of your own aging journey, then you are happier and you're healthier and you live seven and a half years longer, which is a big number. And so, my reaction was, wow, this is-- And study after study shows this. This is amazing, but how as women so inundated with these subliminal messages about how terrible our aging is going to be and the way we have to white knuckle it, just as you described, and pull on our resilience, which we're so good at, and how do we get to that positive view? And that's where I started to realize that going outside and picking an activity that exhilarates and is physically vital and allows you to explore is one of the biggest ways to upend those messages because you cannot be on a physical decline if you're outside. You can't be mentally unable, of course you're not, and you're not boring. And over and over again, I saw as I went outside and did these activities with women that that was the foundational aspect of going outside is that it upended not just the social expectations, but your own expectations of what you could do.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:10:19] Well, and I think you bring up so many good points, not just in the book, but in just the statement that you just made. I think for so many people, they almost don't want to say, they shrink, they become a shell of themselves. But I think for many individuals, the messaging that starts when we're teens, 20s, 30s somethings. And thankfully, you and I grew up in a generation where we didn't have social media at our beck and call. I say all the time, I have boys, so I can only imagine how much more pressure it puts on young women. But I think for so many of us, it's the messaging that starts when we're children or even young adults. Are you around people that put a lot of focus and attention on the physicality of life, or are you in a position where you're developing yourself inwardly so that as you are navigating this aging process, which I will be the first person to say, everyone has good days and bad days. I have some days where I'm like XYZ is bothering me, but what can I do to circumvent the things that are bothering me and really focus on the things that are working so well, feeling so self-assured, feeling so secure in my body and who I am at this stage of life?
[00:11:26] And what's interesting, you mentioned Covid, during Covid so many of us, there are a lot of things we could not do, but we have dogs and so the dogs still needed to be walked. And my husband and I got into this rhythm of taking our dogs for two, three, four mile walks every day because it was one of the few things we could do outside without being masked up and feeling like we were so constrained.
[00:11:49] And the one thing that I have found is over the past five years, just that morning walk and there are other things that we do, for me is just part of setting myself up mentally for my day. It's such an important part. I feel like in many instances, if that is left out of my normal-- Like when I'm doing business travel, if it's left out of my normal routine, I feel a distinctive shift in the way that I feel both physically and emotionally. And so, there are individuals in your book that are doing extraordinary physical feats. And then you also speak to the fact, like even just getting outside and walking or swimming, it does not have to be BASE jumping, which even you admit to in the book is something that's like on the trajectory of experiences. It's one of the more extreme things to do, but--
Caroline Paul: [00:12:36] I didn't do it. It was the only thing I did not actually actively participate.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:12:41] Yes. Which says a lot. [crosstalk] Yes. Because you do some extraordinary things which I again, the concept of awe, which I'm sure we will talk about. So, as you are navigating, being outdoors and engaging in these physically active activities that evoke awe, how do you manage fear? Because I know that you're human just like anyone else. And I think for so many of us, the reason why women in particular may not do a particular activity, they're fearful of falling down and breaking a bone, they're fearful of slipping, they're fearful of not being able to keep up. How do you manage fear and why is it so intriguing?
Caroline Paul: [00:13:18] I mean, I've been intrigued by fear most of my life. Well, let me say, let me revise that, I've been intrigued by the flipside of fear, which is bravery most of my life. And I've been an outdoor adventurer that ranges from being part of a team that did first descents around the world to bike packing around the world or I currently fly gyrocopters. I was a firefighter for many years. So yeah, my Bonafide’s on bravery are probably-- This exploration are pretty settled.
[00:13:50] And I was intrigued by the way we raise our girls and the way we raise our boys and the difference in this arena. So, we raise our boys to be brave because we realize that bravery is expected of boys. And of course, bravery offers all this incredible life skills like resilience and confidence in your own decision making and risk assessment. We teach our girls very young to be afraid. And I started seeing my own peers at the time I was in my 30s, 40s, trying to shed this fear around everything. And so, I did a book called The Gutsy Girl that is really a call for girls to go outside because what we need to do is practice bravery. All of us need to practice bravery, but girls especially, because it was very clear that we're teaching them to be scared. We think that protects them. We think they won't walk down that dark alley or talk to a stranger.
[00:14:48] But in fact, when you teach fear, all you're teaching is for them not to have confidence in their own decisions, to actually look to someone else to make decisions for them. We're setting a girl up to be actually in a very dangerous situation. Not to mention the resilience that you get when you're brave. And so, I have seen that from a very, very young age, we're sort of inculcated with this idea of fear. And all I ask is that we do the flipside, which is bravery.
[00:15:18] People think that I am fearless and I'm definitely not. I just don't give fear-- Fear is one of those emotions that we definitely want to look at, but it's not the decider, I'm the decider. So, if I feel fearful, I'm like “Okay, let's see if I-- Okay, I got the skills to do that. Okay, I'm pushing the envelope here. Oh, it's going to be really fun. Okay, I'm going to go and get on my surfboard in those waves.”
[00:15:43] It's funny because I think that women-- A lot of this book is really about how the median of going outside imbues you with these characteristics. You don't have to start out with any of these characteristics. Just take a step outside, it's almost a physical movement, just some say yes to something. And then you don't have to be someone who's brave. You don't have to be someone who's confident. Those things come during the activity, which is the power of them, because you're not sitting there going, “And now I have to be a certain way,” which is, first of all not fun, and secondly, very hard.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:16:17] Yeah, absolutely. It's interesting. We took a vacation with our boys, who are both teenagers, at least my oldest is a teenager for another month, and then he'll be 20. And the travel agent I was working with, I was like, “I've got teenage boys. They're very active. My husband's very active. This should be a more active vacation.” And I ended up signing us up for things that I normally probably would not have done, because as physically active as I am, and I'll admit this publicly, sometimes I can play it safe.
[00:16:45] And so, as I was reading your book, there was a lot that resonated. And the reason why I'm sharing this story is we did waterfall rappelling on this trip, which I found terrifying as someone who's scared of heights. And I remember I was the first person to go every time we rappelled because I wanted to show my kids it's not a big deal. I was soaking wet the entire day. I had a great time. I really enjoyed it. But I wanted to send the message that, “I'm not going to be the little woman at the end of the line who's the last one to go. I'm going out first.” And my kids were shocked. But it was such an exhilarating experience. And every physically demanding activity we did during that trip just reaffirmed for me why it's so important to show up, to show my kids that, “Yes, I'm a middle-aged person, yes, your dad's a middle aged-person. We can do hard things. We can do things that push our comfort zone.”
[00:17:34] But also, as I'm reading your book, realizing how important it is for us not just physically, but also emotionally, mentally. You mentioned the bravery piece. You mentioned the confidence piece. And it just kind of for me started a trajectory of wanting to do things that were pushing me way outside my comfort zone. Because ultimately, I think that's what we're really speaking to is just not getting comfortable. Because it's when we become comfortable, whether it's emotionally, physically or otherwise, we become stagnant as human beings.
Caroline Paul: [00:18:04] Yeah, I think a lot of people, again, we're not actually trying to grow. We're often, a lot of the women I interviewed, it was an inflection point in their lives and they just decided-- So for instance, I went down to San Diego to speak to boogie boarders who were range from their 60s to their 90s. And I interviewed someone named Lorraine Voigt who told me that-- First of all, she didn't even like the water. But it was Covid, she was sitting on the beach, she saw these women, they looked like they were having fun. She was like “why not?” So, she wasn't trying to push her comfort zone. And that's the beauty of an outdoor activity. I don't want people to again go BASE jumping necessarily. Your comfort zone is your comfort zone.
[00:18:44] So she went in the water and she surprised herself by having fun. And that was really it. And then everything else came. She said to me, and I say this story, and each time I say it, I get goosebumps, but she said, “Boogie boarding changed my life.” And I said, “It's a kid sport. How did it change your life?” And she said, “Look, the Pacific Ocean is huge and cold. Look at the weather today. No one else is in the water. We're having fun. I have to pick waves for myself. I'm helping my friends have fun. And I'm 62 years old and I'm doing this.” And what I realized is she had upended her expectations of what she could and could not do. And her life just like opened up. She said she tackled all these other things. She wanted to tackle her fear of heights. She wanted to be more social. If she decided that her fear of heights was just fine, she could pull back, but the point was is she was like “Ooh, what else could I do?” And I saw this over and over again with the people who-- Especially the women who had never been outside before. It was just a revelation for them. And that's why it's so powerful, because it's an opportunity that sneaks up on you, and suddenly you're looking around like a superhero going, “Okay, where else can I fly to?”
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:18:44] Exactly. How do you think being a female firefighter at a time when there were probably not many female firefighters in San Francisco? How do you think that has influenced some of the choices that you've made after that part of your career was over? I would imagine there were a lot of exhilarating, exciting, probably also deeply troubling, because as a first responder, there are things you're seeing as a former ER nurse, things that you see that probably many people will never see in their lifetime, being present when it might be the worst day of someone's life as an example.
Caroline Paul: [00:20:35] Mm-hmm. in their own home which is an intimate and honor. I got a firsthand view of bravery of my peers and really-- I know we talk about toxic masculinity, and it's definitely true, and there's definitely toxic bravery, but I saw real, honorable, noble bravery in my male peers, and they were lucky that they had been taught so early to go towards bravery, because we--
[00:21:06] Again, I saw a lot of times the first person someone asked me when they heard I was a firefighter is like “Aren't you scared?” And I'm like, “That's, the most boring question. [Cynthia laughs] The answer is yes, but don't you want to hear about the huge fire I just had or the little kitten I pulled out of a fire? There's so much to ask.” And that was where they would go because they couldn't align female and bravery, which is also odd because we're clearly very brave in general.
[00:21:36] Obviously, no one questions what we'll do for our kids. And the Volkswagen we can lift, if necessary, off our kid. But for some reason, in all the other arenas, I think we as women believe that we are not brave. So, I had a firsthand look on bravery and just-- But as a firefighter, for me, the real learning came in the more emotional moments of medical aid, mostly, or just seeing the effects of someone losing everything in their house.
[00:22:08] The bravery part was less difficult for me. The emotional bravery was what I really learned as a firefighter. And writing is a lot like that because you really do flay yourself open when you write. And as a firefighter, you do that too. I mean you don't necessarily do it in front of people, but you need to somehow process the trauma that you're seeing a lot. And I wasn't that good at it, I'll be honest.
[00:22:32] Again, I think the male culture doesn't offer that. It was mostly just drinking at the time, back in the 1980s and 1990s and then that's not happening anymore. So, there is, I think, a maturity that's happening. We're learning from each other, men and women, the cultures. So, yeah, no, so as a firefighter, basically, yeah, it was an enriching experience. I'm such a better person for being a firefighter.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:22:56] Yeah. I reflect back on the time that I was an ER nurse. I was an Inner City, Baltimore. I saw a lot of wild things. And at that time, in the 1990s, there wasn't a lot of support. So, if the nurses and the entire medical team saw traumatic things, you were just expected to swallow it, go back to work, do your job. And I recall one of the ER physicians saying one time, “That was a bad trauma. The nurses are all fucked up for the rest of the shift.” And it was one of these prevailing messages of like don't acknowledge what you've seen, move through it, push it down, move forward, you've got a job to do. That's part of being a professional. So, I was curious if you, in that environment, certainly in more male-dominated environment, how those kinds of things were actually processed. And it sounds like it was probably very similar to--
Caroline Paul: [00:23:48] I just cried in my car. I cried in my car. For me being one of the few women at the time, you really had to hold-- You really had to speak the male language because otherwise you would be judged through a different lens. If I cried in the firehouse, it'd be automatically weak. I mean, I wouldn't cry in the firehouse, okay. [Cynthia Laughs] But if I tried to go for a group hug, it would be like “Oh, no, like soft, weak.” So, I was very happy to see, stick to the male language so that they would see me as brave and strong, which I was.
[00:24:19] And if you start using the more female language, you can still be brave and strong, but you'll be misinterpreted. And so, I erred very much towards being way too tough. And I regret that because I lost opportunities to really process some deeply, like highly human moments that I, again, you and I are only privy to. So, few people get that perspective. And it's an honor like you are there when they're the most terrified in their lives. And I learned--
[00:24:49] I remember seeing a paramedic walk in to a—man was short of breath or we were like “Is this really true?” And she automatically pegged that this guy was, he was maybe sick, but he was super lonely. And she went up to him and she knelt by him, she held his hand and she kissed his cheek and she said, “Oh darling, what's going on today?” And I was like, “Oh my God, what?” But she had done all the healing right there.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:25:17] Yeah, that human connection, it's the same thing when I was seeing patients in clinic as an NP and you would start to realize that depending on where people were generation wise, you know people that were retired, in many instances, maybe you were the only person they talked to in the entire day. And so, I would sometimes tell the nurses, “Some of these patients, don't rush them because you might be the only social connection, they have that entire day. And it might be why they're a little chatty. It might be why they actually are incredibly lonely.” And we know that loneliness is as toxic as smoking. The research is clear about how impactful loneliness is.
[00:25:57] So, it kind of reaffirms a lot of the things that we're talking about, how important it is to have this sense of connection, being able to express our emotions, move through them. Thankfully, we're probably as healthcare professionals doing a better job now than they were 20 or 30 years ago.
[00:26:13] I'm curious, how do you practice-- I'm going to pivot a bit. How do you practice being present as someone who is a self-proclaimed adrenaline junkie? In those moments where you are experiencing or just the pleasure of engaging in an activity that you thoroughly enjoy, how do you practice being present? Because this is something I think a lot of women struggle with is they're on autopilot through most of their life, they're not really present. Whether it's occupationally, emotionally, physically, they're not really present within their lives. But as someone who has done some extraordinary things, how do you practice being present in those moments?
Caroline Paul: [00:26:52] I mean, I think that's again, the beauty of going outside and picking an activity that is just suited to who you are, who you've been, who you're becoming. Push your envelope a little. I ask you to explore and I ask you to be physically vital, is that you're just necessarily present, really. I mean, maybe not the whole time, but you're dipping into this intense. It starts to rain, you feel the wind, you're suddenly feeling exhilaration. These are very grounding aspects of our humanness that pull us to the present moment.
[00:27:28] So I would like to talk a little bit about how-- I got a video of a woman who was in a bad biplane and the biplane takes off. And all of a sudden, in the middle of the video, she starts climbing up onto the wing of the biplane. And I was like, “What is going on?” And it's called wing walking. And it's not a thing. It used to be a thing during the barnstorming days where pilots would do low level antics and they would walk on wings and you can see it on Instagram, but now they just do it, there's only one place, and I don't even know if it exists anymore, to be honest, where you can do wing walking and it's purely for the test, I think. Will you get up on a wing at an altitude of 3,000ft?
[00:28:13] So, I called up this woman, she was 72, Cynthia Hicks. And she said, “Caroline, you wouldn't believe the courage you get when you climb up on that wing.” [Cynthia laughs] And I was like “Okay, now I got to go do this.” And I wasn't happy about it because I'm a pilot, a longtime pilot. Getting out of a cockpit looks really dumb to me. So, I went and I took this class and it's my turn to go wing walking. And we go in the air and he waggles the wings and it's my turn. And I get up and I'm just not happy about this. And I'm adrenaline junkie supposedly. But yeah, I don't like this, but I do it because I'm a writer. And I get up there and I tie myself into the king post. And then the pilot starts doing loops, barrel rolls, and hammerheads across the sky.
[00:29:05] And I went from being like the most bad-tempered wing walker to ecstatic. And when I got on the ground, I was like, “What was that? I know, adrenaline. That wasn't adrenaline. There was something else that happened.” And what I realized I had experienced in a quite extreme way was awe. So, awe is this feeling we get in the presence of something more powerful than us, bigger than us, mysterious. We use it mostly in religious context, but really all the science of awe has exploded these days, but it was new to me.
[00:29:38] I actually had to go after that experience, just look around like “What was that?” And I realized that I had experienced awe just by simply doing something so out there that my brain couldn't catch up to it and it exploded. And what they call awe is a reset button for the brain because it actually sort of-- Your normal everyday groove that you've etched in your neural system it is irrelevant and so your brain is suddenly-- They say it makes you more open minded and curious.
[00:30:17] And so, I looked a lot into awe for the book because going outside isn't natural awe trigger. And they've shown that if you experience awe then you are less likely to be depressed, less anxious, lower blood pressure, lower inflammation markers, all this incredible-- And it lasts. So, one awe-filled experience, like my ballet across the sky lasted for me.
[00:30:45] So, they did a study here in San Francisco where they asked people between the ages of 60 and 80 to walk for 15 minutes and during that walk there was only one instruction, look at everything with fresh child-like eyes. Which is basically what they were doing, was trying to cultivate awe in people. And then they had a control group that just walked normally and these people came back and self-reported less anxiety, less depression, all the things we know about awe and it lasted, so 15 minutes a day with just that small like look at everything with fresh child-like eyes made a huge difference in these people's lives.
[00:31:24] You don't have to wing walk to find awe is my point. Going outside is such a-- Awe is available to you if you're open to it. And really, I heard over and over again from people that going outside puts them in the present moment. And I think awe is part of that. And again, I'm new to awe. Well, I wasn't new to awe, but I was new to the word and the understanding of it. And so also, we live in a world of anti-awe devices. I mean we're just on our phones, this tiny screen. We think we're powerful and in control, which is the opposite of awe. And yeah, so getting outside and picking anything, even a walk, like I went walking with somebody who was 93 and she wanted to look at everything. And I didn't realize it at the time because I had done the walking with her to look at the medicinal properties of walking before my wing walking. But later I was like, “Ooh, I went on an awe walk with [unintelligible 00:32:22]. I just didn't realize it at the time.”
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:32:24] Yeah, I think it's such an important concept and one that, as you astutely mentioned, it doesn't have to be an extreme. It can be as simple as-- I think that's one of the reasons why these walks in the morning have become so important, because we do notice. And I'm also at a stage where my kids aren't as young. And I feel like there was many, many years when they were really young where I was so exhausted it was enough to just get up and get everyone out of the house and go to work. Whereas now I have a different symphony to the way that my days’ work.
[00:32:57] But I would also add to that you know that awe of a vocation, I tend to get that when I'm traveling, so I love to travel. And so, whether it's being on safari or being in a foreign country and you're just-- Whether it's artwork that you're looking at or a building outside, I think for each one of us that we have opportunities to actually evoke awe and how critically important it is for neurocognitive health and reducing inflammation, as you appropriately stated. And we know that as we are navigating this perimenopause to menopause transition, all those things start to change. Heart disease risk, brain health issues, bone health issues, inflammatory markers, all shift in relationship to these changes in sex hormones.
[00:33:43] When you find, when you're talking to these women, these incredibly brave, awe-inspiring women, do you have a sense of whether these women were brave their entire lives or is it something that shifted for them at a particular stage of life? Meaning was it middle age where they suddenly became more interested in activities that got them outdoors and being more physically active, or had they always been that way, kind of had this tendency to be, let's say-- dare I say not aligning themselves with the norm of what we expect women to be doing.
Caroline Paul: [00:34:20] Some. I interviewed a woman who was a scuba diver and she was 80. And we went scuba diving in the Monterey Bay, which is very cold water. She'd been outdoors person all her life and I was interested in the way that it would affect her sense of herself. And she was pretty baffled by all my questions about aging. And basically, I think she was a really great example of someone who just-- She wasn't really aware of the stereotypes, believe it or not, in a way that where she could even speak to what I was talking about. she thought I was-
[00:34:58] She was the best. She had embodied that idea that a positive view of your own aging predicts of how well you age. She just simply had no negativity about aging. And I think it was partly because she'd just been outside her whole life and she was now 80 and scuba diving. So, she got these admiring looks, these surprise looks, oh my God, you're going in the water for twice a day doing this incredible volunteer work. And so that really buoyed her in ways that it just-- I think it was just part of her.
[00:35:33] But I interviewed women who started late as well. And I've interviewed someone who was the most un-outdoorsy woman I'd ever met. Vijaya Srivastava grew up India and just had no outdoor practice, had no exercise practice. She said she walked to lunch with her colleagues sometimes, that was it. And then she came to California and her doctor-- She's 68, her doctor's like “We should change some of these numbers, your sugars, your blood pressure, you need to exercise and you have a pool in your condominium, so why don't you swim?” And Vijaya is like, “Well, I can't swim.” And the doctor said, “Well, take lessons.” And so, she did, because she had the exploratory spirit, which I love. It’s like she had never applied it to the outdoors, but she was fun, she was curious, she was open minded and open hearted. She was an adventurer. She just hadn't applied it yet. So, she learned to swim at 68, which is unbelievable.
[00:36:29] One of the things that I look at in the book is novelty. How important novelty is for our aging process? Because we do believe that we can't learn anything new as we age and it's just not true. It's not true on a neurological level, brain cells keep growing. We keep laying down new neural pathways, which awe is really good for, so is novelty. So, she learned to swim. And on a purely like neural level, she obviously expanded her horizons. But on an emotional level, she did too, because she thought to herself, “Oh, hold it, now I can swim. What else can I do?” And she started doing all these other things that opened up her life, which is the power of going outside and picking something like this because it upends expectations and then you're off and running.
[00:37:19] So, I really realized that there's five pillars of healthy aging and so they would be novelty, health. So, I looked at the physical, obviously how we have to exercise, but also the health benefits of just being in nature, which are as subtle as just birdsong. How that changes your blood pressure and your mental well-being. Also, one of the fascinating things I read is that the softer rounded shapes and fractal shapes of the nature, they match really well with our retinal system so that we process it a lot easier. Whereas you go in an urban environment and the brain is first of all on high alert, it's constantly having to filter, filter, filter, noises, hard edges, hard light.
[00:38:08] And they found that if you take a walk in green space and come back, you test better on cognitive tests because your brain is much more rested. So, there's the health aspect of going outside. So, novelty, health, purpose. Purpose, we need purpose in our lives. Well, I've interviewed someone who is one of the-- She's the oldest female BMX bike racer today. She's now 77, Ms. Kittie. And oh, she was just famous. I went, she taught me how to BMX bike and I did a little race and everywhere I went, people came up to her. “Ms. Kittie, I've been following you, Ms. Kittie.” Kids, women and what I realized that for her is that community she had made. It was--
[00:38:55] yeah, I had actually gone to look at BMX bike racing because I was like competition, we're sharpening our neural, blah, blah, blahs. And I realized, oh no, it's as simple as-- It's not about winning. She didn't even care. Well, first of all, no one raced against me, Ms. Kittie, because she was so old. There was no one in. I raced against her and a 12-year-old, that was the bracket we had because there was no other. And so, she's not about winning. She was all about community. It was just the community of BMX bikers. She wants to lift up kids. She wanted to lift up women.
[00:39:30] So, it's novelty, health, community, purpose. And then finally I added a positive view of your own aging journey. Those five things, if you can get them in your life and we should have them at any time, but they fall away as we age. And it's great, you can go to a book club because you'll be getting novelty and community, but you're not getting health or you could go to the gym and you're getting health, but are you getting community? And so, what I realize is when you go outside, you get all five of those. No matter what you pick them. I couldn't even-- Everything you pick, you will be getting all five of those. And that is the again the added power of an “outdoor adventure.” And I put that in quotes because our adventures you don't have to wing walk or BASE jump, you can just walk.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:40:19] Yeah, I think it's such an important message to be sending that these five pillars are all very important, but you can do one particular activity outside and it affirms all five of those pillars at once. So, for those of us in the world that love to be efficient, which is probably part of my byproduct of the way that I'm made thinking about how important it is. I have one child who loves hiking like that is his thing. Every hiking option that's in our area, we live in a very hilly part of our state, he has hiked everything and that is-- He goes out there and we have one dog that will hike with him who is still able bodied to be able to hike like that. My husband usually goes with him under those circumstances to make sure he's being safe. But it's fascinating to me how the messaging in so many ways for women as they are aging is “Be careful, don't fall, don't break a bone, don't hurt yourself.”
[00:41:14] I interviewed an orthopedic surgeon a few weeks ago and we were having a sidebar conversation after recording and I was saying to her, “Do you find that a lot of your patients just suddenly become fearful so they lose muscle mass, they become sarcopenic, they become frail, they're more prone to falls?” And that tentativeness is, I think it just perpetuates itself. So again, this is why your message and what you are sharing is so important that we can course correct at any point in time. It doesn't have to be-- You've been doing this since you were 20, it can be 50s, 60s, 70s or older and you can actually start doing something of tremendous benefit for yourself.
Caroline Paul: [00:41:54] And that's the irony it’s like doing what you think is dangerous actually will avoid the very thing that you're afraid of. So, the more you walk, the less you're going to fall really because you're going to be more kinesthetically aware. Your proprioception is better, your muscles are better, your neural system is better so you're not going to fall, so that's the irony. We keep pulling back, but it's bad for us. It's going to actually do the very things that we're afraid of.
[00:42:23] So, I mean I think baby steps, like don't just go jump off a cliff, of course with your parachute on your back. Say yes to somebody who says, “I have an extra little sit on top kayak, would you like to come?” And all your warning systems are saying “No way, no way. Cold water, uncertainty,” say yes, just say yes and, but baby steps, don't let them take you on a five-hour kayak trip or something.
[00:42:49] I interviewed a woman who, she wanted to be fit for her daughter and her personality was such, she didn't know any outdoor people. And so, the first thing she did to get in shape was go on this 14 mile, something like that hike. And she'd never hiked before ever. And she didn't know how to pee outside. She was like “I don't know how to do this,” so she didn't pee, she knew nothing. And afterwards she just said to the person that led the hike like, “I think this isn't for me.” And he's like, “No, don't judge it one experience. This is a little extreme.” She continued to be extreme. She went and did CrossFit right away instead of like maybe a gentle walk with a friend in terms of, so baby steps, baby steps.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:43:30] Where do you see recovery in these processes? So, doing these outdoor activities, recovery, sleep, stress management, how does that fit into your lifestyle? Because I know as we are navigating perimenopause into menopause, our bodies become a little less stress resilient. Not that we can't manage stress, it's just a little less stress resilient. What are some of the things that you do to keep your body healthy as you are doing these adventurous activities, awe-inspiring activities?
Caroline Paul: [00:43:59] Well, I'm vegan for one. I think my eating is, well, it's a lot cleaner because I'm vegan. I went to some writer thing last night and there's a ton of cookies which I would have loved to eat because I love sugar but they weren't vegan, so I was like “Oh well,” I mean just kind of it naturally just pushes you to better eating, I think, especially these days it's easy.
[00:44:26] I mean I'm in California so it's very easy to eat vegan. And, I don't take myself that seriously anymore, So I don't have big metrics, so the recovery is sort of just in my day anyway, because I don't need to be two hours in the gym and I don't need to actually biologically, because I've been lifting, for instance, weights for so long that it just-- But also just mentally, I don't need it. I know I don't need, I'm fit for my life, I don't have to lift 500 million pounds, like why?
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:44:55] Well, and I think also if you've been physically active your entire lifestyle, it's very likely a bit easier to maintain where you are.
Caroline Paul: [00:45:03] But I really think people, again, like yes, if you have not been physically active, the best time to start, okay, yes, maybe it was 30 years ago, but the second-best time is right now. And it can happen very, very quickly. I think that's the beauty of it and the fun.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:45:03] Yeah. I think that for a lot of people they-- A lot of my patients, they overcomplicate things not purposefully, but they're like, “Oh, I haven't been active, therefore I have to do these five things before I'm ready to do it.” And really, a lot of what you're stressing is go take a walk. Have a meal, go take a 10- or 15-minute walk outside, take up a new activity, because we know that neuroplasticity in our brains is so important.
[00:45:46] I think many years ago, probably during even my training, we were taught that brain activity and brain growth is static. It's not designed to perpetuate itself. But we know neuroplasticity, laying down new brain connections. I always say, “What wires together, fires together.” So, helping people understand, whether it's learning music, whether it's learning a language, whether it's learning how to play pickleball, whether it's learning how to kayak or snorkel or boogie boarding or whatever new activity you're doing is going to be of benefit to you, not just physically, but also mentally and emotionally.
Caroline Paul: [00:46:22] I interviewed someone, Joan, her kids were just out of the house and she wasn't feeling good. She was in her 50s, perimenopause, and she wasn't feeling-- She thought she'd have energy. Her twins were gone, but she had less and less. So, she decided and she got an app called Couch to 5K and just thought, “Okay, I don't want to rely on anyone else. All I have to do is get some sneakers.” And she taught herself to run. It's supposed to do in three months, I think she did it in six. But it was a journey that she went on, very simple, using a template that someone who knew better than her. And she started to really like it. And then she's like “Now I'd like to learn more about the races,” so, she joined a community of runners in LA, but was like not about-- It didn't occur to her that would be about the people, but then they're all cheering for her at the end of the race and she thought, “Oh,” so she started running with Black Girls Run. She started doing triathlons and all of a sudden, she found herself in shape.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:47:24] Yeah, those good habits perpetuate other good habits. You have a lot of beautiful quotes in the book. One quote, “At every phase of life, look at your options, please don't pick the boring ones. And this is from a nurse who skied the north pole at 75.” So, each time I read one of these quotes, I would turn around and say to my husband, “Oh my God, you've got to hear this one.” Those kinds of realizations that you know as Barbara Hillary says, “Please don't pick the boring ones.” Do things that are of interest to you, but don't play it safe, per se.
[00:47:56] I always say to my kids that the only way we grow is to push ourselves. And so, pushing yourself could be taking that 10- or 15-minute walk. Let me stress, it does not have to be the extremes, but I think for each one of us knowing that throughout our lifetime, how important it is to be challenging ourselves, to be evoking awe, which now I look at a little differently, but it explains quite a bit about some of the activities that we've been doing over the last several years. Are there other people that you interviewed that you feel like would be particularly relevant to talk about? This Barbara Hillary quote just really stood out to me as I was reading the book, that is like eighth central message that you're sharing throughout.
Caroline Paul: [00:48:34] I just think that we should realize that as women, we have been cautioned our whole lives, first by our parents and then by myriad of other people, really honestly, and they've done studies on this, that parents are saying, “Watch out, don't do that, be careful, to their girls, but not to their boys.” So that's really deep in our neural system and our muscles, everything. But don't pick the boring ones. And I think don't default--
[00:49:00] Fear is going to come up, just because it comes up doesn't mean you have to-- You listen to it, but you don't have to not do it, not do that. My own mom, honestly, again, most people were not on a journey to be braver, be better, build my character. They just wanted their life to be a little better. And so, my own mom picked up, well, bicycling when she was 62, my age now, and it changed her, but she wasn't trying to be changed. She had broken up with her boyfriend of many, many years. Just wanted to be a little happier. And so, she's like “Why not? Why not?” That's powerful. Why not? What's the worst that could happen? And she changed her life, it changed. And it changed the way we saw her.
[00:49:42] I mean, what I realized ultimately through this book, again, like if this book was a quest, constant realizations, is that my mom had been my own subliminal positive message about my own inner aging journey because I saw her do things as she aged that opened up her life. And I didn't give her credit for it at the time because I either didn't realize it or I was her kid and didn't want to. But as I become her age, then I realized how much I actually-- I was one of the few of my friends who was like “Oh, no, aging looks really cool.” And all my friends were like “Oh, my God, I'm getting so old, and blah, blah, blah.” And I realized that it was thanks to my own mom.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:50:25] That's huge. I mean, that is an enormous gift to have a parent that serves as an example and a role model for behavior. because I think for many individuals, they have the opposite. And this is not being critical. Parents do the best that they can, but I think in many instances you get this kind of incredible blessing. It sounds like your relationship with your mom was an incredible blessing. You also have a twin sister. Is she as brave and adventurous as you are?
Caroline Paul: [00:50:50] She's different. We're identical, but her adventures are-- She's first of all the toughest person I know, she really is. Well, she was an actress for many years in Hollywood, so you got to be tough to do that. She had an incredibly successful career being just honestly, a super great person the whole time. She's most well known for being on Baywatch, so most people recognize us, maybe not anymore, but during-- Certainly, when I was a firefighter, I was constantly-- I was stopped all the time and I'm in my fire uniform, but of course in a weird twin thing, LA Lifeguards, which is what Baywatch features are part of the fire department. She was a firefighter on TV, where I was a firefighter in real life. But she does like an 11-mile swims.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:51:38] Amazing.
Caroline Paul: [00:51:41] Yeah. No, now. And she's invariably like 10 people will start because these swims are epic and two will finish. And it will always be my twin, like one of them will always-- So, she's actually-- And she's super fit, but she's not really an outdoor adventurer per se, but she getting outside is definitely key. I have a younger brother who's also-- He's a wildland firefighter. He's amazing. And again, probably like we all embrace adventure and bravery, but just it shows up in different ways.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:52:10] Yeah. What do you think it is about your parents that embedded those traits in you all? What do you think contributed to your adventurous spirit? Each one of you, it sounds like you are these adventurous beings.
Caroline Paul: [00:52:22] We were raised at a time that you'll probably understand, which was basically free range. You went out of the house at when it was light and you came back when it was dark. And there's so much structure these days. I think kids are managed to such a degree, they're not making decisions about how they spend their free time and it's just, everything is-- All the uncertainty is taken out of things. Whereas we had a ton of uncertainty, like “What are we going to do today?” “I don't know, let's get on our bikes or our skateboards.” And there was a lot of creative play. And I think that's an adventurous mindset. We don't look--
[00:52:58] So I think that-- We know that we're raising anxious generation, there's many reasons for that. I think there's a sense of if we take out the sort of uncertainties, that we will help that anxiety, because anxiety seems to be linked to uncertainty. But in fact, when we take out the uncertainty, and so then we’re like “You're going to be here at three, you're going to be here at five, you're going to do that at seven.” We also take out the possibility. So, I think that when you grow up having to be responsible for your own possibilities, then that just can be magical and I think we were lucky enough to take full advantage of that mindset.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:53:35] Yeah, my kids, sometimes when I explain how things were when I was growing up, I was a latchkey kid. My parents are divorced. My kids, I would describe that they probably had some structure, but not nearly as much as a lot of their peers. I oftentimes will encourage my kids to be bored. I'm like being bored is a good thing.
Caroline Paul: [00:53:51] Yes, oh it’s great.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:53:53] First of all, there is no boredom in my life. But I said, “When you tell me that you're bored, I'm going to give you something to do, so don't ever tell me that you're bored.” But my parents didn't provide a lot of like-- So it was like I had to entertain myself. I learned reading and engaging with peers and being outside. And we were outside from as early as I got up in the morning until bedtime. I was allowed to come in for meals and to go to the bathroom, that was it. Otherwise, I was expected to be outside all day long and that was my entire childhood, and it was such a blessing.
[00:54:22] Well, Caroline, I've so enjoyed this conversation. I really loved your book and your work. Please let listeners know how to connect with the outside of this podcast, how to get access to your books, and learn more about you.
Caroline Paul: [00:54:33] I mean, my books can be at your local independent bookstore, it’s now on the shelf. It just came out in paperback, Tough Broad: From Birdwatching to BASE Jumping--How Outdoor Adventure Improves Our Lives as We Age. So, independent bookstores, you can find it anywhere. And I am on Instagram @carolinembpaul. And I have a website through which you can contact me, carolinepaul.com, I'm pretty easy to find on the Internet. Don't look up my twin sister by mistake.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:55:05] [Laughs] Thank you again. It's been such a great conversation.
Caroline Paul: [00:55:07] Thank you, Cynthia. I appreciate you so much.
Cynthia Thurlow: [00:55:12] If you love this podcast episode. Please leave a rating and review. Subscribe and tell a friend.
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