Ep. 485 Emotional Dysregulation & Nervous System Repair with Dr. Roseann Capana-Hodge

Today, I am delighted to reconnect with Dr. Roseann, an integrative children's mental health expert and the founder of the Global Institute of Children's Mental Health. Over the last 30 years, Dr. Roseann has helped thousands of children and families overcome the most challenging behavioral and mental health conditions.

In our conversation today, we take a deep dive into emotional dysregulation, exploring the biology behind it and the origin of emotional triggers. We discuss parenting and boundaries, the effects of rumination and negative thinking, the value of mindset changes, the role of gut health, vagal tone, and the connection between the gut and brain. Dr. Roseann also walks us through QEEG brain testing, touching on pharmacological options, lifestyle, AI, and tech, and sharing her favorite supplement for mental health. 

As always, this discussion with Dr. Roseann is rich and insightful, and I know you will enjoy it as much as I did.

IN THIS EPISODE, YOU WILL LEARN:

• What emotional dysregulation is, and what it takes to break free from emotionally dysregulated patterns 

• How the brain's perception of safety can either support or block emotional regulation

• Steps to take if you find yourself in a pattern of dysregulation

• The importance of teaching children about boundaries

• How changing your mindset can help you break free from negative thought patterns

• How subliminal negative messaging from parents trickles down to the children

• The link between rumination and emotional dysregulation

• How stress affects gut bacteria and impacts brain function

• The benefits of QEEG brain mapping

• AI technologies that can help regulate the nervous system

Bio:

A mental health trailblazer, media personality, and founder of The Global Institute of Children’s Mental Health and Dr. Roseann, LLC, who is on a mission to change the way we view and treat mental health, showing people it's gonna be ok with science-backed tools that calm the brain. With her trademarked BrainBehaviorResetTM Program, she has helped thousands address the most challenging conditions affecting kids and families today, including PANS/PANDAS, OCD, anxiety, mood/behavior, and ADHD/executive functioning.

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“Emotional dysregulation is when you should put the brakes on things that ignite your nervous system and activate you, yet you can’t.”

– Dr. Roseann Capana-Hodge

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Connect with Cynthia Thurlow  

• Follow on Twitter

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• LinkedIn

• Check out Cynthia’s website

• Submit your questions to support@cynthiathurlow.com

Connect with Dr. Roseann Capanna-Hodge

• On her website

• Podcast: Science Fact Solutions for Dysregulated Kids 

Transcript:

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:00:02] Welcome to Everyday Wellness Podcast. I'm your host, Nurse Practitioner Cynthia Thurlow. This podcast is designed to educate, empower and inspire you to achieve your health and wellness goals. My goal and intent is to provide you with the best content and conversations from leaders in the health and wellness industry each week and impact over a million lives.

[00:00:29] Today, I had the honor of reconnecting with friend and colleague, Dr. Roseann, who's an integrative children's mental health expert and founder of the Global Institute of Children's Mental Health. For the past 30 years, she's helped thousands of children's and families overcome the most challenging behavioral and mental health conditions. Today, we spoke about emotional dysregulation, the biology of emotional dysregulation and what is actually going on in our brain and autonomic nervous system, the sources of triggers of emotional dysregulation, particularly in moms, the role of parenting and boundaries, the impact of rumination, negativity and the value of changes in mindset, the role of gut health, vagal tone and a bidirectional relationship between the gut and brain, what QEG brain testing is? pharmacological interventions as well as lifestyle AI and tech and last but not least, her favorite supplement for mental health. As always, a totally beneficial, action packed and interesting discussion with the amazing Dr. Roseann. I know you will love this conversation as much as I did, recording it. 

[00:01:43] Dr. Ro, good to have you back again. 

Dr. Roseann Capanna-Hodge: [00:01:45] I always love our conversations. I'm so excited that we're going to be talking about dysregulation. 

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:01:51] So I guess the easiest way to begin the conversation is to really identify, what is emotional dysregulation and why is it so problematic? Because I look at this both as a clinician from the perspective of I want to better understand this behavior, but also as the child of parents that were not emotionally well regulated and how that impacted me growing up in the way that I interact in the world.

Dr. Roseann Capanna-Hodge: [00:02:18] Yeah, I When we think of emotional dysregulation, we think about, exclusiveness or over-reactivity and feeling things too strongly. And really, emotional dysregulation is when you should be able to put the brakes on something that ignites your nervous system, activates you and you're not able to. And, we are moving and have moved to a society of people who dysregulate way too easily from kids to adults. And it's multifaceted. There's lots of reasons why, but some parents don't deal with their own things before they have kids. And so, they get stuck in a, as I like to say, a co-dysregulation pattern instead of a co-regulation pattern, which is sad to see. And I'm all about hope. And everybody can change their pattern in life.

[00:03:16] They don't have to stay in a dysregulated state. They just have to want to change it and they have to actually do something on the daily about it. Because I always have a magic wand, but there isn't a magic wand for this. This takes some work and it's worth it because you will feel physically and emotionally very different.

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:03:36] Well, and I think, you said it best. You have to first identify the behavior and number two, you have to be willing to fix it or to work towards fixing it. And I reflect back on the environment in which I grew up, which I didn't at the time realize was unusual. And it wasn't until I got older is it any surprise that out of a very dysregulated, chaotic environment that I grew up in, what do I crave? I crave exactly the opposite. I like calm, cool, collected, emotionally regulated. So, for the benefit of listeners, let's talk about the physiology. Like what's actually happening in our brains and our autonomic nervous system that allows us to either regulate or to not be able to regulate our emotions. 

Dr. Roseann Capanna-Hodge: [00:04:22] Yeah. And just so you know what you bring to the table is what helps you manage stressful situations, whether they're temporary or ongoing. We'll go back to that. Put that in the parking lot for a minute. But just as a refresher of the autonomic nervous system, it's our stress response system and when it's regulated, it's in a parasympathetic state. I always call that the hot tub state. So, you feel good, you're calm. And then when you have a stressor, real, imagined, perceived, constant, temporary, your nervous system's going to go into a stress response. It's going to go into a sympathetic dominant state. And at the very, very tippy top of your total sympathetic dominant state is going to be that you're going to struggle to respond. 

[00:05:13] So, in your case, you were somebody that you didn't freeze, you were more of a fawn, you kept going and doing the right thing. So, we have different responses in our body that go on autopilot. But what happens when we dysregulate.  So, once we dysregulate, we move into that fight, flight, or freeze response. We move into that way. That's an autonomic response based on primitive reflexes from caveman time. So, cavemen had to go into alert states. The problem is they were doing things because they were constantly faced with life and death situations. Today, our nervous systems still think it's life or death. And so, once we dysregulate, our amygdala in part of our limbic system is really the first step in saying, “Is this dangerous? Should I stress out about it?” They didn't have the shoes I wanted. Why am I so mad?”

[00:06:13] And then your frontal lobes will say, “Okay, you should put the brakes on that.” You can order those shoes. You have another pair. And I just use this as an everyday kind of thing because we're faced with everyday annoyances. I found myself super activated driving around the greater New York area, Connecticut. And everybody wants to drive in the passing lane. And I'm like, “Get out of the passing lane.”

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:06:39] [laughs] How dare they? 

Dr. Roseann Capanna-Hodge: [00:06:40] How dare they? And I would get myself so irritated by it. By the time I would get to work, which isn't like me, because Cynthia knows me. Part of why she loves me is I'm balanced. I'm super balanced, I process things, I see the positive, I take the learning lesson, and I move on. I'm not a person who really gets stuck on things. But once your nervous system is moving into this activation, it starts cortisol cascade. 

[00:07:07] So, your cortisol kicks in. If your braking system works because it's not overworked, it will start saying, “Okay, no,” and your cortisol levels will go down. Once it starts moving in that direction where you're activated and you're activated and you're activated some more, which is very easy to do in life's everyday things, whether you're working or parenting or whatever is happening, or you got stuff from before you haven't dealt with, right? Once that happens, then all of your resources in your body, your microbes, in your gut, your immune system, your neurotransmitters, that cortisol, everything moves to try to figure out what that stressor is. And then your body goes offline and you get into this pattern of an activation. 

[00:07:55] So, the more you activate, the more you activate, the less you activate, the less you're going to activate. It's called the rich get richer; the poor get poorer, the negative Matthew effect. So, if your body is like, “Hey, I can get stressed.” Just like when I did figure out a way not to get so stressed when people were driving in the passing lane. And that was by actually I do an EFT tapping on my clavicle. And I also said, “Don't drive in the passing lane, Roseann.”

[laughter]

[00:08:28] And then I pulled myself out of it, took some work, when you have a petty annoyance, like, why, why is it petty annoyance? Ask yourself that and then put some work around it, because those little things start building in the nervous system. And we are moving into this zero-stress tolerance state in many, many ways, from children to adults. And not to say that people aren't really living very busy, stressful lives, because they are. But if you don't do something to counter it, what's going to happen is your nervous system is literally going to just keep dysregulating. And you now understand it's going to happen more and more and more. And there's a science behind it. There's a biology. Your hormones, all of those things are moving to keep it activated. But you can counter that.

[00:09:18] And it takes intentful practice and I like to say that I want to see resetting your nervous system. I want you to think about it just like brushing your teeth. You, of course, are brushing your teeth because you're going to get cavities. [laughs] You're going to have stinky breath. You're going to have all these negatives. And now you proactively do it. We need to do the same thing to stop the stress response from happening so it doesn't have to be a runaway train. I promise you, it really doesn't. 

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:09:48] Well, and I think that's so encouraging. I grew up in New Jersey, as I think most listeners know, and there's a lot of driving rage in certain parts of the East Coast. I remember when I went off to college, I was shocked that, what was accepted in New Jersey is that you only drive in the left lane to pass cars. You're not in the left lane to joyride. It's not for the Sunday stroll. You're supposed to accelerate and then get over to the right lane. That is not how the rest of the east coast manages the way that they drive. And I find for myself, the only time I will allow myself to get triggered or really irritable while I'm driving is when I've had a time management problem. 

[00:10:30] And by that, I mean, I accept responsibility. Maybe I didn't get in the car at the time I needed to get there. Then all of a sudden driving at least the speed limit for me is absolutely essential. And when I get behind someone on a two-lane road that won't, it's like I can just feel that irritation start to build. And so, the way that I've reminded myself is, number one, next time leave earlier because that's not that person's problem that you're irritated. And number two, what are the things I do. You mentioned you tap your clavicle, for me, it's all breathwork. It's like, “All right, we're going to do some box breathing while we're driving.” In the grand scheme of things, this is not worth getting upset about. If you're two or three minutes late to an appointment, probably not a big deal. 

[00:11:09] Again, next time plan ahead. Plan to be early or just plan on if you're on that two-lane road to give yourself some grace and realize you may get behind the person who wants to drive 10 miles under the speed limit and not allow it to be such a triggering event. Do you find that there are certain sources and/or reasons for why women in particular will get dysregulated? I would imagine being middle aged just by virtue of the challenges of hormonal fluctuations, the sandwich generation, the responsibilities that we have at this stage of life, that in and of itself could be, a triggering event or sources of irritation. But for you clinically, as a clinical psychologist, what are some of the common reasons or stages of life where women are more vulnerable?

Dr. Roseann Capanna-Hodge: [00:11:57] Well, yes to all that you said, Cynthia. We are the sandwich generation and we've talked about it just as friends and in between, caring for our teenagers and aging parents and all these other things. But even for me, I feel like lack of sleep, and lack of proper daily selfcare. So, yes, we go for our massages, yes, we go and do these fun things, but it's really, we're ignoring what we need to do on the daily to constantly do things to reset ourselves. anybody who listens to me talk-- every time I sit down, which is I don't know how many times in a day, 30 times, you're up and you're moving around. 

[00:12:40] I actually have a mental thing that I do that I visualize my feet as tree trunks they implant on the ground, do a breath, do a few rounds of some diaphragmatic, which is belly breathing, to pull yourself down. It's the quickest thing you can do. So, what are those daily practices that you're doing? I don't think women, we are such providers and carers, so we're not taking that time. I also think parenting is a lot more triggering and much harder than people imagine. So, I tell a story, in my opening chapter of my next book, basically when you're pregnant, all they want to do is talk to you about birth. And man, people want to tell you their horrible stories about birth. [Cynthia laughs] And I would be like, “I don't want to hear it.” 

But really, nobody's really telling you what it's like, right? They don't really tell you know. “Hey, these are the five best things. I said to my kids to help them be calmer or regulated or struggle less, whatever it is.” We talk about other things. And so, we come into parenting with the number one way we learn to parent is how our parents taught us. [laughs] And some of that may be relevant and some of that may not. And so, we walk in with these assumptions. We think about behavior as being disrespectful and back talking. And we're not realizing that our kids are struggling on their own because we think, “Oh, we're providing good food, we're fighting good homes, we're doing all these things.” But for women, I think mothers are juggling a job, the mothering job, being the healthcare manager of the family almost as exclusively as women. 

[00:14:27] And they're then caring for parents potentially as well, or an aunt and this, that. And so, we get overloaded and we get activated. I also think clinically there are a lot of people that have unresolved shit. I just want to say it like it is. [laughs] And so it's okay, we all got our stuff. I mean, sit down and have a cup of tea with me or a glass of wine, and I'm happy to tell you about my stuff. But we can't just say we have stuff. You have an obligation. If you are a parent, you chose to have kids, they didn't choose you. So, if you're constantly activated by a kid, get it together, go to a therapist, you can listen to me and I can give you lots of tips. But if you have something unresolved it's going to be like whack a mole. It's just going to keep coming up, coming up, coming up. 

[00:15:22] And I work with just the most amazing mothers in my clinical practice, and they recognize that, and they're taking action as part of that. So, I'm not here to shame you. I'm just saying you can't wish it away. You can't deny it. If you are like, holy cow, I'm so activated. And also, don't get me wrong, as a mother of a kid who's dysregulated, it's really hard to parent a kid who's incredibly dysregulated. Even when you don't have a history of stuff and whatnot, you need skills, you need support. So, there are many reasons, but what I always say to people is, if you find yourself in a pattern of activation, pattern of triggering, you need to take a moment, you need to put that in your note on your phone. You need to start being a detective and then find somebody who can help you on that. 

But the quickest way you can do that is really just taking time to bring yourself down into a parasympathetic state. And we can talk more about that. 

[00:16:28] But, I hope when I have these conversations, it's an aha moment. Not a moment of shame, but a moment of, “move your coolie,” as my mother would say, which means move your butt in Italian. [laughs] Because it's not good for you, it is not good for your relationship with your partner, and it's certainly not good for a parenting relationship, and we don't want to continue that pattern going forward. 

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:16:55] Yeah, it's so. It's so interesting. I obviously had my first child at 34, my second at 36, and my greatest fear as a burgeoning parent was recreating the environment in which I grew up in. So, I started therapy in my early 20s. I jokingly say I'll be in some form of therapy for the rest of my adult life, But I think my children have been my greatest teachers because it has reinforced for me why it was so important not only for me not to create what I grew up in, but also to make sure that I was communicating with them in a way that was thoughtful and conscientious. And then calling myself out, when I get triggered by something one of my kids does, I'm like, “First of all, this is not about them. This is about me. This is about me.”

[00:17:47] And I think in particular, and I think my podcasts are getting more and more personal because I'm more comfortable talking about these things, but when you have an opposite sex parent. So, I grew up with a father that for most of my life did not live with us, lived in another state. He was an alcoholic. He was very cruel and did the best that he could, but was just not in the right emotional state to be able to be a parent. And I think as a young woman growing up in that circumstance with that opposite sex parent, it took a long time for me to figure out what should I expect from men? What is acceptable behavior, what is not acceptable behavior? 

[00:18:27] And I think, God, the universe, there's no coincidence that I have all boys. So, I look at it as not only was my choice and partner critically important for not recreating what I grew up in, but then God bestowed upon me two wonderful young men who were once babies and toddlers and are now young men. And the realization that I think part of my healing journey has been being able to heal that experience and to be able to be in a position where ensuring that my children are starting off with very different foundation of not only awareness of their emotional needs being met, but also an awareness of communication patterns. What's effective, what is not effective. 

[00:19:12] And what's ironic is that now my older son, who's almost 20, which is hard to believe, he and I have really open conversations about different things, not just about my family, but he's been in college for a year, so we get to see a whole variety of emotionally well-regulated or not-so-regulated individuals. And it brings me great solace knowing that my kids are starting at a different level of emotional awareness than I probably was at that same age. So, I bring this full circle to say that there's no shame and blame here. Even if we grew up in circumstances that didn't allow us to have that behavior modeled over time, we can learn, we can unlearn, and then we can work on our stuff. 

[00:19:59] Because when we get triggered, I always say it's an opportunity to work on something. I always say it's a little scab gets picked and you're like, “Oh, here's something that I need to do more work on.” So, I think for everyone listening, it's with the understanding that it's not as if we have a degree of them. And I think it's a span, it's a spectrum of emotional regulation, even for those of us who are are very, well, emotionally regulated. If I get triggered over something, I may have to go, take myself into a corner and think through myself. 

Dr. Roseann Capanna-Hodge: [00:20:30] Usually call me and ask if it was okay to—[crosstalk].

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:20:31] I was going to say I usually call Roseann I'm like, “I need to talk through this. I need to talk through this.” But I think for everyone, like, to understand that there is hope, there is the ability to change. We are static beings. It's not written in stone. And so I think one of the things that I think is really important about these conversations is giving people the opportunity to reflect on their behavior and say, “You know what? I think I can course correct.” 

Dr. Roseann Capanna-Hodge: [00:20:55] Yeah. 

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:20:55] These are the ways that we can go about doing it. 

Dr. Roseann Capanna-Hodge: [00:20:57] And there's so much beauty in what you shared in your story. I think one of the most important things is you as a young person was like, “I don't want that.” And then you didn't just say, I don't want that, and then just repeated the pattern. You broke the generational cycle of it. And how you did it is, I know you. You are very clear about your boundaries. 

[laughter] 

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:21:24] Crystal clear. 

Dr. Roseann Capanna-Hodge: [00:21:25] Super clear. But you did it through a lot of emotional communication with your partner and your kids. So, your kids got to see you when you did struggle, you were honest about it and you were like, “This is what I'm doing. This is what's hard.” And so, your kids, now when they launch into the world they do, are like, “Man, I don't want that.” And that's incredible because boundaries are one of the most beautiful things to teach kids because it creates psychological safety. It gives them control. And, what do we know about, why people get stuck, why people get anxious? why do they get emotionally dysregulated? It's more than anything, it's their mindset. We know that when that people have negative thoughts, when they're ruminators and they get stuck on the negative, which is very easy to be negative because our brain wants to be negative. It's just the way that it is. It's that alert system, it's going to see a negative about 20 times faster then it's going to see a positive. 

[00:22:28] So, we have to change our mindset first, so to say, “Okay, I had horrible trauma. I was abused, now I have kids, I didn't know I was going to struggle so much with having kids.” Okay, that's all right. But also, to know that it's the micro steps that change things. And we have to regulate our nervous system first before we can even attempt to change our mindset or do a course correction, as you said. We can't navigate without a clear path. That nervous system has to have the space, if you're moving it to fight, flight or freeze all the time. Physiologically, you're not going to be able to change your behavior. And it's going to feel awful. 

[00:23:17] It is like when people go to therapy and they're like, “I feel awful when I'm in here and I don't get anything.” It's because that therapist isn't teaching you how to regulate your own nervous system first. And it's not a pill. It's not anything magical. It really is just teaching it to stay down in this regulated state so that you have the space to do harder work. And that's what therapy is, if that's what's the right thing for you. And therapy is great, when you have a great therapist and you're ready for it. But sometimes people need other things first. I mean, probably more than half of my patients, we can't do therapy until we're about halfway through our program because her nervous system is just too activated. 

[00:24:00] So, we work on regulating the nervous system before we do any therapy. And you know what, the outcomes are great. Sometimes, people feel bad. I'm like, “Don't feel bad that's just a messaging of the world.” Again, you have control over those negative thoughts. You have to learn how to do that. And so many people are raised in just negative homes, and it's because that was a different style of parenting. Every once in a while, I get a parent like that, and I was like, “This ain't the 1950s. [Cynthia laughs] We can't talk to our kids like that.” And then they get scripts from me of what they should say. And then I'm like, “Okay, which two or three are we going to be using here all the time?” And then they're in shock of how dramatic the behaviors change, because that nervous system being so activated feels awful. Feels awful for everybody for sure. 

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:24:52] Yeah. There's definitely differing parenting styles, I would say. I grew up in what I would consider to be an authoritarian-- [crosstalk]

Dr. Roseann Capanna-Hodge: [00:24:59] Yeah. 

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:25:00] -type of parenting style. And that is not how I parent my kids. But I think there's generational shifts. I think that we grew up in a stage where a lot of kids got spanked and there was a lot of corporal punishment and that authoritarian. Jokingly, I used to say, see the children, but don't hear the children. You were expected to parent yourself and do your own thing. And that's both good and bad. And so, I think that your point about negativity really starting with us, and depending on what kind of environment you grew up in, depending on the social cues, the emotional cues, the verbal cues that you absorb, because children really are sponges. We absorb a lot. 

Dr. Roseann Capanna-Hodge: [00:25:41] Absolutely. 

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:25:42] And whether people appreciate that or not and I'll use another example because I think this is relevant. I have a lot of female friends that their mothers were chronic dieters or chronically obsessed with their weight. One thing my mother did a really great job with what she never made-- like there weren't conversations around weight or anything like that. But I had a lot of girlfriends that felt a lot of pressure because their mothers were chronic dieters. And even if they never said to them, I expect you to be a certain size, or you have to be focused on your weight, the subliminal messages were, this is what's important. This is what's valued. And I have several girlfriends that I would say their entire lives, they have a preoccupation with appearance, their weight, their size, the scale. And it is a byproduct, of this subliminal messaging that we can get from parents again. And it might have been unknowingly parents are embedding this-

Dr. Roseann Capanna-Hodge: [00:26:37] Absolutely.

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:26:38] -into children. And so, I think that those negativity bias that we can get can sometimes just be like, there was no intention beyond that. It was just a preoccupation of a parent that then trickles down to their children. And so that kind of imprinting that we talk about can be rewritten, which I think is so important as you astutely stated. Let's pivot and talk a little bit about ruminations, because I think for a lot of people, this is something, perhaps a new term, certainly a term that I'm familiar with, but one that I think is tied into emotional regulation and is really important to better understand that imprinting that we receive that impacts the way that we think and view the world and how that can be unwound as adults or even as young adults.

Dr. Roseann Capanna-Hodge: [00:27:23] Yeah. So, rumination, it's really, really interesting. It's technically a behavior. But I also see because I do those brain maps. I also see people have parts of their brain that are more likely to activate. And what is rumination? It's when we have stuck on thoughts-- negative thoughts, worries, beliefs that we spin on. It's when you really become a looper and you tend to get stuck. You get stuck not just in your thought patterns, but you lead those thought patterns lead to stuck behaviors. And I think, when you're a parent and you have multiple kids, I have a kid who can be a ruminator, so I know that I have to approach him early and get in there and it's done over time and trust and I can go over that. And then I have another kid who doesn't ruminate at all. I'm like, “Did you want to think a little bit more on that? [laughs] 

[00:28:19] He just doesn't have it, he processes it and he moves on. But ruminations, when our brain gets stuck in this way of thinking about something. So, Cynthia and I talked about something had happened where my kid was excluded from something, and it basically happened in front of everybody. And it was really upsetting. So, I didn't sleep a wink and I stayed up all night spinning on it. Now, I'm not a ruminator, but it was like I couldn't not stop thinking about it. It was upsetting. Now, it's easy to know when this happens when there's an event. But ruminators don't really need an event. They just tend to get more stuck, right? 

[00:29:02] And so, what does that do to our nervous system if we're always moving into a negative without a relief, without a brain break, our nervous system will activate. And I think just to know that, we look at research about lifelong happiness, which is what we want as parents, we want happiness for ourselves. We know that self-regulation is the factor that determines lifelong happiness. Because self-regulated people do different things. They're more positive in their focus. They can manage stress. They don't avoid stress. They can manage it, tolerate it and find a solution. They're good problem solvers, but when we get stuck in a negative loop, we don't find solutions. So, you're annoyed in your life and you're activating [laughs] just like I was annoyed in the passing lane. 

[00:29:59] I finally was like, “Roseann, this is like the only thing that activates you, deal with it.” Cynthia said, logically, leave earlier, whatever. [Cynthia laughs] I wasn't even late. I would just get annoyed. I thought it was so discourteous. That's what it is. And I finally had to just say, “This is the one thing that is truly annoying to you.” Because other things I can control, like, Cynthia and I really don't like high drama people. So, they're out as soon as they have high drama on a regular-- [crosstalk] 

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:30:33] Bye bye. 

Dr. Roseann Capanna-Hodge: [00:30:33] I'm not saying they don't have troubles in their life. We don't want to hang out with you if you're only coming from a drama point of view. So, we have a lot more control. And I want people to start thinking about when they' feeling negative and activated. There is more control. And the thing is, the more you regulate, the better you can respond to everything in your life. And that's a message we're just not hearing. And so, we think we want to go to medication. So, you're anxious. Do you really have anxiety disorder? And even if you do, why aren't you doing more to regulate your nervous system? Because that pill isn't just going to do it for you. You need to change how you're physically responding to things. You need better strategies and tools. 

[00:31:17] So, when we think about emotional regulation, it's not just controlling our emotions, but it's controlling our body's responses to things. And there's so much we can do to reset our nervous system, regardless. What I always like to say, “I work with the toughest cases.” I worked with kids and adults who survived Sandy Hook, 9/11 survivors. People with extreme levels of trauma. If I can get them to regulate and respond and be happier in their daily lives. I feel like all of us can do it. And it just is that intentful practice. And it always feels bigger than it should in the beginning. But once you start doing something, like your listeners, these are all people who change their diet. I just had a party at my house because I don't allow any gluten and dairy and this mom came up to me to apologize that, you know, JC was celiac. And I said to Cynthia, it's like, “Why is she apologizing to me?”

[00:32:13] And I said, “Oh, you shouldn't apologize to me. He really enjoys steak, shrimp, crab legs. [laughs] She was like, “Oh that sounds really good.” And I was like, “Yeah, he does not miss an out, trust me. Don't you worry.” So, our mindset about things can really be dramatic. And it's the same way and dysregulation is on the lips of everybody because people are feeling it. There's so much uncertainty too, Cynthia, in the world, and I think we're not talking about that either from wherever you stand in political climate in the world, there is an uncertainty from economic perspective, from a humanity perspective in the world. And I feel that, I feel the stress of that. And so, we have to be conscious even about those things entering into our consciousness. I choose not to really watch the nighttime news. 

[00:33:07] I read the news so that I can be in control of what hits me, but there are so many things that we can be in control of and I want people to be empowered by that. But it all starts with our thoughts. 

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:33:20] Such an important point. And since you touched on nutrition, talk to us about this bidirectional relationship between the gut and the brain. I think for many people, obviously we talk a lot about gut health on the podcast, but that interrelationship between the health of our gut, our neurotransmitters, which can be our happy hormones and our happy neurotransmitters, but how important regulation of that vagus nerve, which is the superhighway that connects the brain and the gut and how that impacts the way that we not only self-regulate, but the way that we view the world.

Dr. Roseann Capanna-Hodge: [00:33:53] There is a huge impact. And I don't think people realize how important gut health is for mental health. And you said it so beautifully in the same words that I use, that there really is a back-and-forth relationship between the brain and the gut and influence each other. So, if we have a lot of stress, the gut bacteria in our stomach reduces. Well, that bacteria creates many of our feel-good neurotransmitters. Serotonin almost like exclusively created their dopamine. So, then our brain doesn't work as well. And so, what winds up happening is people then go and get SSRIs, which reduce the bacteria in your gut and even ADHD medication reduces the bacteria in your gut.

[00:34:42] And you can't just say, I'm going to eat healthier because I have lots of people come into me and they are like, “They put me to shame how clean they're eating.” They're like, “We got this cow. We knew where it came from. We have this.” And I'm like, “Okay, you're a whole other level for me,” and they have such high levels of stress that they're not able to change the bacteria in the gut. And it's not until we do both. I'm not saying you need to be 100%. You need to be 80% good eater. And have a wide variety of foods. The research says you need at least 20 varieties of fruits and vegetables in a week, which I know sounds very high, in order to have appropriate flora in the gut that can include multiple forms of onions and garlic. There's lot you can-- [crosstalk] 

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:35:31] Herbs.

Dr. Roseann Capanna-Hodge: [00:35:32] Your parsley, cilantro, so you can get there, but you need a variety. But stress is a killer of bacteria in the gut. And again, then that has a negative effect in the brain. So, instead of being overwhelmed by these things, because I deal with kids that are facing very serious clinical issues, extreme OCD, ADD, PANS, PANDAS. Be excited by the possibilities because you can start knocking each little thing down and potentially can be dramatic. And some people, I have, they're like, “I'm already feel like I'm doing everything I can. What could be some tweaks? Can you add a supplement to help me regulate?” Well, of course. “Can you add 100 billion probiotics?” Of course. But what are the behavioral changes? 

[00:36:23] What are those little tweaks? When you talk about how you talk to your kid. Let say your kid was really upset and yelled at their brother. So instead of-- we've all been there. Instead of saying, “I can't believe you're yelling at him again, what is wrong with you? I mean, there must be something really wrong with you. Instead of being like, “Okay, so I see this as hard.” Let's take a moment and pause and let's figure out another way to deal with this. And then open up those conversations. Because if that really is always happening, something's really going on and you disciplining it or yelling about it isn't going to help your kid figure out another solution. 

[00:37:08] And just to backstep, we're not going to have the capacity to help our kids if we don't regulate ourselves first. We have to regulate before we go in and offer support. And if you're not doing that on the regular, it's going to be real hard. You want your brain and your body to have an automatic response that's positive. And so, the cool part, like why I do breathwork 20 times or more a day, is it just happens, and it just does it, and it keeps me chill, and it's part of why I am just amazing in highly stressful situations. I actually know how to just get right into this zone. And I always say, “You want to do what Sully did?” Remember Sully when-- [crosstalk] 

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:37:54] Yeah, The airplane. 

Dr. Roseann Capanna-Hodge: [00:37:55] The airplane, and so birds got into the engines, and he was as cool as a cucumber. And he did the impossible because he was calm and he landed that airplane in the Hudson? Well, he didn't just become calm. He was calm every day. And that was just part of what he did. And there were things that he did to make himself regulated and be able to respond to that. Those people wouldn't be alive if he had panicked. And so, I look at parenting as like moments of panic. [laughs] It really is as simple as thinking about brushing your teeth, whether it's breathwork, whether it's EFT tapping, whether it's a yoga practice, whether it's mantras. 

[00:38:42] There are so many things that you could do. You just have to pick one, two things and then just do them every day, multiple times a day. And if you're feeling like I can't even remember, well, I set timers on my phone when I feel like I'm not taking enough care of things to remember to sit and do the breathwork or whatever. So, would it be great if you did meditation for 10, 20 minutes? That's just not everybody's cup of tea. And that's all right, EFT tapping. You start doing EFT tapping, you look like a goofball. I do it when I'm driving. 

[laughter]

[00:39:18] But it works for me, so you have to identify what works for you, and then you got to do it. 

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:39:25] I think that's really key. It's funny, as you were talking about Sullenberger and how he miraculously and heroically landed that plane, I reflect back on a time as an NP. There were one or two of the hospitals that I was based out of didn't have Cath labs. So, for listeners working in this large cardiology group, a Cath lab is where you send patients when they're having an emergency need a blood vessel opened in their hearts. And sometimes, I would be in a hospital where there was no Cath lab, and my doc might be somewhere else a different hospital. And I would have to make calls, I would have to make decisions flying a chopper, calling for an ambulance to transport a patient. 

[00:40:06] And in those moments, if you asked anyone that I used to work with, they were like, you were just always so calm, cool and collected. And I was like, “It's breathwork.” That is for me, one of the ways without even realizing what I was doing, was how I was able to think clearly. Because as you astutely stated, when you get scared or frightened, and even that happens to health care providers, maybe, really-- [crosstalk] 

Dr. Roseann Capanna-Hodge: [00:40:27] Worse.

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:40:27] We have the oh, shit moments of, a patient who's really sick and the right ventricle of their heart's not working, so their heart rate's really low and their blood pressure is really low, and they need a lot of support. They need surgical intervention, is breath work. And I used to always say, “If I was calm, then everyone else around me would be calm.” And then everyone could do their job in a way that helps save that patient's life. And so, I always transpose that into my personal life and my professional life. Now, first of all, there's very few emergencies in my life, thankfully, [laughs] a lot less these days. But when those things do happen, I'll use an example. We have a lovable Bernie doodle puppy who's 70 pounds, and he tends to be mischievous because he's a puppy. 

Dr. Roseann Capanna-Hodge: [00:41:10] Yes, he does. 

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:41:11] And my 17-year-old left something out that the dog should not have ingested and it was a mistake. And these things happen. And when we realized what the puppy had eaten, I call poison control. And the poison control gives us direction. And then we're taking the emergency vet. And my son said to me afterwards, “You were so calm.” I said, “But if I hadn't been calm, how would that have helped the dog or you? Because you were freaking out. And the dog, of course, was oblivious to what he had eaten.” But I think it just reaffirms going back to if you're quiet in that-- if the autonomic nervous system is quieted, supported, you're regulated, then you can think. And if you can think, then you have time to decide what to act on and what to do. 

[00:41:52] And so, I always say we're always going back to our training. And what was the thing that helped differentiate me from a lot of my peers was that I was always calm. So, I bring that full circle to say that at any point in our life, personally or professionally, we can utilize these strategies to get out of fight or flight. 

Dr. Roseann Capanna-Hodge: [00:42:09] Absolutely,

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:42:09] One thing that I want touch on, because you've talked about it, maybe not per se on this podcast today, but I know that I've gotten a lot of questions about what is brain mapping? 

Dr. Roseann Capanna-Hodge: [00:42:18] Oh, yeah. 

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:42:19] What is some of the technology that you use in clinical practice that helps you and your patients determine how they need to be supported. And I say this transparently I have a child that had brain mapping through your offices, so I was able to kind of see this from a whole other perspective. But how does brain mapping play a role in emotional regulation? 

Dr. Roseann Capanna-Hodge: [00:42:40] Yeah, and thanks for sharing that personal info. And I also just want to close the loop on what you just said. You did an amazing job role modeling for your kid. And there is something so powerful about that. There is nothing you can say to your kid that will trump what you actually show them how to do. You have to model what you want your kids to be doing. And you did that. So, and it's the life's little moments that are so much more teachable than anything you could say or another professional, it really is. But let's talk about brain mapping. So, I love brain mapping. I'm such a data geek, it's not even funny. But brain mapping, what is it? 

[00:43:18] So, a QEEG brain map measures the surface electrical activity of the brain, like an EEG, if you were concerned about seizure activity. So, instead of just stopping there, we take that information, we put you in a database, and you're compared against males and females around your age range. And it gives that visual representation of what's under or overstimulated in the brain. And sometimes under-stimulated brains actually have very big reactions to things because there's no baseline. And so, the reactive brain of that overstimulation, yes, you're much more likely to have big reactions, but in the same breath, you actually can have a highly depressed person who shut down.

[00:44:04] So, it tells me what is happening over each of the structures. So, we talked about the amygdala, we talked about the frontal lobes. The occipital brain is a big part of how we regulate as well. But it also shows me how the brain is communicating to itself, which is very important in particularly neurodivergent brains. We're better understanding that neurodivergent brains have deficits either over/under communication in how the brain is speaking. 

[00:44:34] So, just overall, it's really showing us where it's working best and where it's not. And so, when I do a brain map with somebody in 30 seconds, I can tell you so many things about you, how you're regulating, how you're processing information, where your strengths, what's happening in learning in general, in everyday life. So, what is a little different about me? And I'm going to be retiring in 2026 everybody. No, I don't have a protege to take it. So, is that when you come to me for a brain map, I have 33 years of clinical experience in working with people, and so I can take that information and map it to behavior and make that plan as to what you need to do. How can you change? 

[00:45:23] And most of my people are coming to me because primarily they've tried a lot of things and it hasn't worked. A much smaller subset which has grown over these last few decades is people who already are holistic and don't want to put beyond meds. And so, they're looking to change things. So, common things, as I mentioned earlier, would be ADHD, learning disabilities, OCD. But it's a wonderful tool and it really takes the guesswork completely out. 

[00:45:54] So, our system in mental health is actually built on a book called The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, which is totally aligned, no surprise, with pharma. And when you have a clinical diagnosis and you have this many problems and for this long, “Oh, look, there's a medication that seems to match up with that.” So, it's still a tool, it's still helpful. But what I'm seeing more of is that people have lots of diagnoses. They also might have clinical behaviors without it fitting in a bucket and that's okay. You don't always need a clinical bucket. If you are dysregulating either an under-stimulated pattern or an overstimulated pattern, there are things we can do. Diet, exercise, who we are spending time with, direct strategies to regulate the nervous system are all just incredibly beneficial. And we know this through research. 

[00:46:53] And these changes we make really create, as I like to talk about calm DNA, like you really start changing. Whatever historically has been there can end. And you can change the way things are happening right now for your child, for yourself and generations to come, which I think is just so incredible. And these are the conversations I want to have more of, because people are hurting. There's more Americans on psych meds than has ever happened. There are more clinical diagnoses than ever. And across the globe, it's rising. So, across the globe. I think I had said this before in our podcast about teens, but in teens, 14% of kids have a clinical mental health issue, and people in America aren't getting help 1 and 2 aren't getting help at all, even though they've been identified, which is shocking. So, I'm a big fan of doing things on your own. But when you really need clinical help, you need to get somebody who's going to guide you, and that's important. 

[00:47:54] So, brain maps, check under the hood, give us really great data about what needs to change in the brain. And I always, always want to guide people to doing natural solutions first, interventions that are clinically proven through research. We never, ever, ever should use medication for a developing brain as the first line of defense. There's just too much good stuff out there that actually can create beautiful change. And as we talked about the impact of medication, no shame, but just understand that there are side effects, and reducing the gut bacteria is one of those. And I think so many women are on an SSRI. They're also on GLPs now. But we become so dependent. Many women will say to me, Cynthia, “I don't even know if this is working anymore.” And if you're not sure something's working anymore, you need to find a provider that can help you figure that out. 

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:48:54] Absolutely. I feel like what I hear from moms right now is, number one, it's really hard to find providers. So, whether it's a psychiatrist, clinical psychologist, therapist, that's number one. So, I think there are not enough clinicians and mental health experts. And so, I'm hoping that is changing. I know there's a lot of influence not only in nurse practitioner programs, but also physician programs and psychologist programs to get more providers out there. Number two-- [crosstalk]

Dr. Roseann Capanna-Hodge: [00:49:24] I do think it's changing, Cynthia. 

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:49:26] Yes. I think it is. 

Dr. Roseann Capanna-Hodge: [00:49:27] But also, just so everybody knows, there is not one independent school of functional medicine in America, meaning that it's, own institution. All functional training is done under another institution. And that's a problem that needs to change. When that changes, this is going to go on like it's going to amplify at another level, but we do have a lot more providers. Thank you, Jesus. 

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:49:56] Well, I think I've gotten no less than two or three postcards in the mail encouraging me to do a post back. So, that means after my graduate degree, going back and getting a psychiatry nurse practitioner certification, I was like, “Thank you, but that's not my place to be. And I'll leave that to the people that are better suited for that.” Number two, there's a time and a place for medications. But I 100% agree with you, especially with developing brains and developing bodies, being really conscientious if someone's on medication, being really clear that's really, really needed and indicated. And interestingly enough and transparently I will say I have a dog. It's one of our rescues. When we got him, he's just anxious dog. And when I tell you we have done everything, when I say everything-- [crosstalk] 

Dr. Roseann Capanna-Hodge: [00:50:40] Oh, I am sure.

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:50:41] -imagine holistically. And I remember finally our vet who's great, said, “Cynthia, there's no shame in putting your dog on medication.” And he's like a different dog. And I think to myself, for so many years I was so anti-medication, but this dog is so much happier. He is so much happier being less anxious. So, in no way, shape or form- [crosstalk]

Dr. Roseann Capanna-Hodge: [00:50:59] That's right. 

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:50:59] are discouraging people if you need to be on medication and it's life changing. That's fantastic. 

Dr. Roseann Capanna-Hodge: [00:51:05] But so many people are on it and don't feel like it's helping. And also, you should never just start with meds, you really should be starting with behavioral help, therapy in some regards and certainly lifestyle changes. Everyone always says, “Oh, doesn't it take a long time to feel the difference in food?” Wait a second. If you went and had cake all day, do you feel like doo doo? Yeah, okay.

[laughter] 

[00:51:33] So, if you're eating brown rice and beautiful greens with chicken, you feel different. So, why is it any different, and it just does so much-- so many positive things for the brain and for neurotransmitters and I can't say enough about diet. It is the foundation-

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:51:52] Absolutely. 

Dr. Roseann Capanna-Hodge: [00:51:52] -whether people want to accept it or not, okay? 

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:51:55] Yeah, absolutely. Sometimes it's easier to take the pill than change your diet. 

Dr. Roseann Capanna-Hodge: [00:51:58] Absolutely. 

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:51:59] To round out the conversation, are there any AI or tech devices right now that you are watching, looking at, considering, utilizing with your patient population? Because I know a lot of our conversations outside of the context of this conversation are amazed at how far AI is taking things, how it's exponentially pushing the boundaries of knowledge and everything else. Are there things on your horizon that you're really looking to and are hopeful will be helpful for patients moving forward? 

Dr. Roseann Capanna-Hodge: [00:52:30] Well, so fascinating because I do see two kids in counseling that I'll probably be still seeing them. I won't retire with that. I mean, I'll take them with me, young adults, and they're just great kids, and they just need me here and there. But what I'm seeing is that people are using AI for therapy. You know, I love AI. I just think it's just incredible. Now I am developing an app that is going to have an AI component that basically is “Ask Dr. Ro anything,” which we already have in our course. But an app is great. I think that we need actionable things. So, in my program, I have, how to manage, what to say and do in life's toughest parenting moments. And I think AI, under the guidance of somebody who's monitoring what's in there, I think can be incredible. And there's just so many applications in terms of technology. I love brain tools. I love technology. 

[00:53:33] Everyone always wants to ask me, what about this and what about that? The explosion during the pandemic of technology. More has been developed in the last five years than the 30 years before, in my experience. And so, using things like biofeedback tools, heart math, love it. Cynthia and I love PEMF, which is pulsed electromagnetic field therapy, creates an energy field of magnetics, changes the way the cells are working, helps you go right into a parasympathetic state. I have my own device called Calm PEMF. There are so many great ones. There are other tools from neurofeedback and parasympathetic activators, vagus nerve activators. I think these tools are great, and if you use them and you feel good, use them. Now the thing that I see is that people get these tools and they don't use them. So, they'll say, “Well, it didn't work.” And I'll say, “Well, how long did you use it?” And they're like, “Oh, I used it for a week.”

[00:54:34] A week isn't going to erase 30 years of activation when you grow up with parents screaming at each other all the time, or maybe they didn't show any love and you're trying to regulate in that, so you really need a constancy. The research around all of these tools is so solid and I love like, I made a portable PEMF device because what I found is I've been using it for 10 years, and everything I had, had a sit. It was a mat or whatever, so you just weren't using it. So, think about when you choose a technique and you choose a tool. “Is this something I can do every day and how am I going to build in that time and the reminders.” 

[00:55:18] And potentially, is this a tool that we could be using as a family? A technique or whatnot? I think these are great things. Cynthia and I, our boys are like, “Hey, I'm going to do the sauna.”

[laughter] 

[00:55:30] We fight over the sauna in our house. I'm like, “Oh, no.” And then my husband's like, “We can go in the sauna together.” And I was like, “No, thank you.” [Cynthia laughs] It's It's really like a one-person sauna. But I love that they recognize and do things for themselves. And instead of me lecturing my kids, I'll say to them, like, “Oh, this and this and this. You've been getting sick a lot.” Giancarlo was getting sick a lot this year. So, I was like, “What do you think you should do?” And he was like, “Well, you really don't like dairy, so I think maybe I should cut back on that.” I was like, “Yes.” And then he was like, “I think I'm going to start doing the sauna every weeknight.” And he never got sick again. 

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:56:09] Amazing. 

Dr. Roseann Capanna-Hodge: [00:56:10] So, think about how can you use these tools and integrate. I love tools. I have a lot and so does Cynthia. 

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:56:17] I think they're very, very effective. And I was on my PEMF bed earlier today. Okay. Last but not least. Favorite supplement for your patients and why you think it's something that most people should be considering. 

Dr. Roseann Capanna-Hodge: [00:56:30] Yeah. I think you're going to know I'm going to say magnesium. So, I only made one supplement. It's magnesium, and it has L-Threonate, Glycinate and Malate. And we need magnesium and we need a lot more of it, and we need it every day. And people are often surprised by that. And the reason is 3 to 600 chemical processes in the body require magnesium as a cofactor, which is a helper. So, without appropriate levels of magnesium, I'm going to tell you why we don't have appropriate levels. Our body just can't work as well. Our brain can't work as well. And so, it is the most essential nutrient in the body. 

[00:57:10] And so why do we have low levels of it? One, most people aren't eating nutrient dense food. And even if you were eating like every high level, magnesium food, you're probably not going to be able to keep up with the stress. So, it is stress, it is hormone changes, it is all these challenges we face in our life drain our magnesium. L-Threonate and glycinate are brain magnesiums. We know through research. These are the ones that have the most research to help us with sleep, anxiety, depression. L-Threonate crosses the blood brain barrier. And there is only one other form which does not have research on it yet that crosses the blood brain barrier. So, why is that important? It's literally like doing an injection of magnesium to your brain and it will calm you very quickly, quicker than medication, quicker than marijuana, and without a whole lot of side effects. 

[00:58:17] And these are also the least likely to disturb your stomach. These are not pooping magnesiums, but we need it. And then if I had to say a second, it's vitamin D, because the two of them are like peanut butter and jelly and they do lots and lots of stuff. But I love lots of mental health supplements and depending on what you need, but always check with your provider, but most people could really benefit from this. And I have so many stories where people, they were taking another magnesium, like a citrate or an oxalate, and they are like, well it wasn't doing anything. And then they try an L-Threonate or glycinate together, and they're just in shock. Like, how immediate the difference is in their sleep and their effect. And so, important in nervous system regulation, it is the most critical nutrient and people just are deficient. 

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:59:07] I'm going to give you a fun fact. So, in clinical cardiology, we always wrote if someone's magnesium was low, but not so low that they needed IV magnesium sulfate, we would give magnesium oxide because that's what the hospital carries. Fun fact. You can absorb only 11% of magnesium oxide. So, if anyone listening is taking magnesium oxide, throw it in the garbage. It is not a very bioabsorbable or bioavailable form of magnesium. And so really important to be conscientious that about the type and formulation of magnesium that you're taking. 

Dr. Roseann Capanna-Hodge: [00:59:37] Yeah. It's so important. I know Cynthia pours her heart into her supplements. You really can't buy supplements on Amazon. You just don't know where they're coming from. Like, unless you're buying from a provider that has a store on Amazon that they can guarantee. But the quality of your supplement makes a dramatic, dramatic difference. People come in with serious, serious, serious mental health problems and they'll show me their list and then I find out where they got it from and they don't have the right amount. The potency needs to be there. And Cynthia's like me we follow the research. When we're designing these products or advising people on it just can make a huge, huge difference. And I feel everybody can feel good about magnesium. I mean, it helps. You name it, it helps.

Cynthia Thurlow: [01:00:29] Absolutely. Well, Dr. Ro, I always enjoy these conversations Please let listeners know how to connect with you, learn more about your work, listen to your podcast or get on your list to be made aware of when your new book goes on sale. 

Dr. Roseann Capanna-Hodge: [01:00:41] Yeah, I'm so excited. The Dysregulated Kid. I'm not going to tell you the rest of my title because it's under discussion right now, but you can find me anywhere at drroseann.com and that's D-R-R-O-S-E-A-N-N dotcom and my podcast is Science-Backed Solutions for Dysregulated Kids. And give it a listen. The episodes are quick. You got to hear my saucy Italian style, but I really try to give people practical information and again, as a purveyor of hope, if you're struggling literally, just take one actionable from today and do it for 30 days. 

[01:01:19] And I promise you things will get better. Because it's the lack of doing the repetition that is why things aren't moving the dial because that's what changes the brain. And so, always have hope and put a little motor behind it and boy, that's where the magic happens. 

Cynthia Thurlow: [01:01:39]100% Thanks again for your time. 

[01:01:43] If you love this podcast episode, please leave a rating and review. Subscribe and tell a friend. 

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