Ep. 482 How the Oral Microbiome Impacts Your Whole Body

I am thrilled to connect with Dr. Staci Whitman today. She is a leading authority in functional dentistry, on a mission to revolutionize oral healthcare with a unique blend of scientific expertise and compassionate care, dedicated to creating a knowledgeable and cavity-free world.

In our discussion, Dr. Staci explains how the oral microbiome functions as a gatekeeper for systemic health, and we examine the impact of chronic mouth breathing and the significance of nitric oxide production. We explore allergies, myofascial symmetry, physical therapy, sleep disorders, and breathing as a continuum, and discuss changes during menopause that impact the oral microbiome, affecting salivary flow, bacterial diversity, risk for gum disease, changes in taste, oral pain, and impaired immune defences. Dr. Staci shares her thoughts on how dentistry needs a reboot, whether fluoride should be in drinking water and toothpaste, and the impact of veneers, braces, and Invisalign. She also offers tips and tools for optimal oral health. 

This discussion with Dr. Staci Whitman offers powerful insights, and I look forward to having her join us again after her book comes out in 2027.

IN THIS EPISODE, YOU WILL LEARN: 

• Why is the oral microbiome so important?

• Why chronic mouth breathing is not benign

• The steps middle-aged women can take, from a dental perspective, to help navigate hormonal changes during menopause 

• How oral dysbiosis affects various organ systems

• How hormone replacement therapy can save the quality of your jawbone and teeth

• Why women must optimize their diets to support midlife hormonal changes

• How common dental advice can sometimes be more harmful than beneficial for the long-term health of your microbiome.

• Ways to optimize your oral microbiome

• The benefits of tongue scraping and oil pulling

• Popular dental trends that concern Dr. Staci, as a dental expert

Bio:

Dr. Staci Whitman, a leading authority in functional dentistry, is on a mission to revolutionize oral healthcare. With a unique blend of scientific expertise and compassionate care, she's dedicated to creating a cavity-free world. Dr. Staci is board-certified in pediatrics, integrative dentistry, and naturopathic dentistry and is one of the only dentists in the world to have her Functional Medicine Certification from the Institute of Functional Medicine. She founded one of the leading Functional Pediatric Dental offices in the country, where she takes a whole-body and holistic approach to her care. She is the co-founder of the Institute for Functional Dentistry, launching in summer 2025, and lectures globally on Functional Dentistry and the Oral Systemic Connection. She is also the co-founder of Feed Your Good Guys (Fygg), a microbiome-friendly oral care.

With a passion for optimizing the oral microbiome, hormonal health, nutritional status, and sleep and airway health, she is a sought-after expert and educator with a heavy focus on preventative dentistry, cavity arrest, and remineralization, and the oral-gut-brain axis. Dr. Staci passionately shares her knowledge and insights on creating happy teeth and healthy lives.

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“Behind the gut, the oral microbiome is the most diverse and extensive microbiome in the body.”

– Dr. Staci Whitman

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Transcript:

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:00:02] Welcome to Everyday Wellness Podcast. I'm your host, Nurse Practitioner Cynthia Thurlow. This podcast is designed to educate, empower and inspire you to achieve your health and wellness goals. My goal and intent is to provide you with the best content and conversations from leaders in the health and wellness industry each week and impact over a million lives.

[00:00:30] Today, I have the honor of connecting with Dr. Staci Whitman. She's a leading authority in functional dentistry and is on a mission to revolutionize oral health care. With a unique blend of scientific expertise and compassionate care, she's dedicated to creating a knowledgeable and cavity free world.

[00:00:47] Today, we spoke about how the oral microbiome is a systemic gatekeeper, the impact of chronic mouth breathing and also it not being a benign entity, the importance and significance of nitric oxide production, the role of allergies, myofascial symmetry and physical therapy, sleep-disordered breathing as a continuum, specific changes to the oral microbiome in menopause that impact salivary flow, the diversity of bacteria, increased risk for gum disease, changes in taste and oral pain, and impaired immune defenses, why Dentistry needs a reboot and specific comments relevant to the use of fluoride not only in drinking water, but also in toothpaste, techniques and tools for optimal oral health including tongue scrapers, oil pulling and diagnostic testing. And lastly, the impact of veneers, braces and Invisalign. This is truly an invaluable conversation. I can't wait to have Dr. Staci back after her book comes out in 2027.

[00:02:03] Dr. Whitman, such a pleasure to connect with you. I'm so glad that you are on the podcast talking about really important topics for women, especially specific to how the oral microbiome is kind of a gatekeeper to our bodies. And I would love to start the conversation about why the oral microbiome is so important. I think people think about our mouth probably from the context of I brush my teeth, I eat food and I chew, and that's probably as much as they think about it. But it really is a very sophisticated ecosystem in our bodies.

Dr. Staci Whitman: [00:02:35] It is. Well, thank you for having me, Cynthia, and elevating this message. It's profoundly important, especially for your audience, which are women our age. And that's predominantly my audience as well. So, the oral microbiome, it is the second most diverse and extensive microbiome in the body behind the gut. And we all know the gut is having its heyday. It has for the past 15 years. But the oral microbiome, thank goodness, is becoming more front and center and they do influence each other tremendously. In fact, I want people to start thinking of the mouth as the gut. It is the entryway into the gut. It's the beginning of the digestive system.

[00:03:15] We've now identified 800 different species of bacteria that reside in the mouth. And they live in all different niches. So, we have different microbiomes on the tongue versus the tonsils, versus our teeth versus our gums. And so, it's this really beautiful ecosystem and we need them. They're very important for the remineralization of our teeth, for our immune health, for pH balancing and nitric oxide production, which we will get into, digesting food, etc., but we can have dysbiosis in the mouth too and that's when things are imbalanced. That's when we have more pathogenic bacteria or fungi or protozoa or parasites versus the healthy commensal bacteria. 

[00:04:01] And we are learning now that the oral microbiome can impact every organ system in the body. 57 diseases are cross linked to oral dysbiosis. And I just think for so long, oral health has been compartmentalized, like much of the body is in medicine, you know, dentistry went one way, medicine went the other, and so we just don't tend to take our oral health that seriously. It's an afterthought. And we really need to bring that back, front and center. The mouth is the gateway into the body. We can learn so much about our own health or a patient's health by looking in the mouth if we just know what we're looking for and it all comes down to the oral microbiome.

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:04:42] Well, and I think you're so right that we as medical professionals, there's been this divesting, whether it's our eyes or our mouth and these traditional patterns of people will get coverage to go see their internist, but they may not get coverage to see their dentist. And I think many people-- I trained in inner city Baltimore, and I would have patients say to me, like, “I don't have the money to be able to go get my teeth checked, get my teeth cleaned.” I can't tell you how many individuals I saw that were my own age [unintelligible 00:05:12] that had significant tooth decay, were not able to see the dentist with regular intervals. 

[00:05:20] And I do think that that separation from that traditional medical model has contributed to many people not realizing that our oral health and our teeth are equally important to any other body system. And so that's why I think your message in particular is so needed and so important. And I would love to ask this question because I have an ongoing debate with my husband about mouth breathing. We know that it can change the shape of our mouths, it can change the shape of our palate. Why is chronic mouth breathing not benign? And what should we be doing to look out for this, to address it, to be proactive about it? I think mouth taping has become very popular and I think for a lot of individuals, they're not even aware that they're not breathing with their mouth closed or even-- Not even just when they're sleeping, but as they're walking around doing their day-to-day activities as well. 

Dr. Staci Whitman: [00:06:13] Yes, this is profoundly important and it will change your life if you can get this course corrected. Humans are changing, we are shrinking. Our faces and jaws and airways essentially are getting smaller. This began, we theorize, about 12,000 years ago. So, this is when went from a hunter gatherer society to an agrarian society. We started farming. We started growing wheat and corn and soy and rice on the masses and then flash forward to the industrial revolution where we started milling and processing food. And the anthropologists are estimating we used to chew when we were foraging, probably about four hours a day. 

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:06:58] Wow. 

Dr. Staci Whitman: This active chewing, mastication, and this goes to breastfeeding also is what actually lateralizes the tongue and expands the face and makes our mid face wide, our jaws broad and forms the airway. But we don't chew that much anymore. We now chew about four minutes a day because everything is mushy. Think about the Frappuccino and the chicken nuggets and the mac and cheese. I mean, we just don't chew-- Plus we're such in a rush. And so, this has been epigenetic, it's been generation after generation for the past, in theory, 12,000 years. And so, our faces are narrowing and our jaws are narrowing, our palates are narrowing. With this volumetrically, our airways are shrinking. 

[00:07:42] And so, what isn't changing is the size of our tongue. So, if the skull is getting smaller and the jaws are getting smaller and the sinuses are getting smaller, but your tongue is the same size, where does it go? And so generally speaking, your mouth will pop open or your tongue will fall back if you're sleeping and this will lead to chronic mouth breathing. And once you learn about this, you can't unsee it. You will go to the airport, you will go to an amusement park, just look around and you will see how many people mouth breathe and forward head posture too. 

[00:08:14] And James Nestor, who wrote the book Breath speaks to this. So, if this interests people and you want to deep dive, I think this is one of the best books ever written. And he tells that it in a really fascinating narrative way, but it's a major issue. And the downstream effects of chronic mouth breathing are profound. And this starts in childhood. So chronic mouth breathing, we will get 20% less oxygen to our brain. So, in these very important developmental years in childhood, that is a significant impact on brain development. And chronic sleep deprivation can mask and look like ADHD or behavioral issues in children, so this is very important for parents to know or grandparents out there listening. So, if your child is or you, your mouth's open at night, are you Darth Vader breathing? Are you snoring? Are you tossing and turning, do you grind? Are you waking up a lot, are you restless? These are all red flags for airway issues. 

[00:09:13] Mouth breathing not only impacts brain development and oxygenation, but it will impact your hormones too. And hormonal changes, especially in perimenopause and menopause, can lead to inflammation, gut dysbiosis, digestive issues, it can impact hormone regulation, but it's also changing the oral microbiome. So, when we breathe through our mouth, the pH of our mouth drops. And by pH, that's the acid base scale just to remind people. When we breathe through our mouth, the pH becomes more acidic and its acid is where bad bacteria thrive. Healthy bacteria, they like neutral pH or alkaline pH. But if you mouth breathe, you're completely shifting your microbiome from one of commensal or beneficial bacteria to potentially pathogenic bacteria and this is a good sign. 

[00:10:03] When you wake up in the morning, do you have that dry sticky film in your mouth? This is gross to think about, but this is a good check in or is there a bunch of drool on your pillow? You're probably sleepy with your mouth open at night. So, if you suffer from chronic dental health issues, cavities, gum disease, tonsil stones, halitosis or bad breath, my bet is you are a chronic mouth breather in some capacity. And aside from the pH, it's also drying out the mouth, so this is called xerostomia. And I don't think people take their saliva, their spit seriously enough. It is the golden elixir of our mouth that profoundly important for digestion and immune health and remineralization of our teeth and just maintaining and buffering the health of our mouth. And this is why we see patients as they age, if there's cortisol imbalances, chronic stress that can impact salivary health, but also mouth breathing.

[00:11:00] And cancer patients too, okay, so they undergo radiation, chemotherapy, their teeth will just become destroyed a lot of times and why is that? They've lost their saliva. So, I want everyone to please appreciate your salivary health. This is where hydration and appropriate mineral balances are so key. And so that's another effect of mouth breathing, but also nitric oxide development. So, there are bacteria on the dorsum of our tongue which help facilitate nitrate reducing to nitrite and then eventually becoming nitric oxide. And nitric oxide is this very important molecule for our cardiovascular health and our immune health. And it starts in the mouth in the paranasal sinuses. So nasal breathing is really important for nitric oxide production too.

[00:11:49] So, all of these things can be impacted by something that we may think is so trivial as mouth breathing. But if you suffer from chronic disease or your children do or someone, you notice my first thing, I think, when someone comes into my office, I want to know, “Are you a mouth breather?” And I observe them as they walk into my office, what is their posture, their stature? Is their mouth open? But then I dig into a sleep questionnaire too, to try to assess how they're sleeping. And I do love lip taping or mouth taping. I do it every night. It is a band-aid, truly, because we're not actually addressing the root cause issue. And we can get into those. There're quite a few different directions we can go in, but a lot of times that requires jaw surgery as an adult or orthodontics and lot of us don't want to undergo these procedures, which is why it's so important to catch these things early in childhood, because we can course correct. You know, a child is so malleable that we can actually get their jaws and face back to how they ideally would have been ancestrally. And this is why so many patients need orthodontics and there's crowding and we don't have room for our wisdom teeth, etc., is because our jaws shrinking. 

[00:13:03] And this is just a fun thing people can do. If you're ever at the Natural History Museum in New York or Washington DC. Go and look at ancestral skull you will see how big and wide and broad the jaws are. And there's room for the wisdom teeth. And now our jaws are so narrow, V-shaped, the teeth are crowded. So, this is a skeletal issue that again, has been going on for about 12,000 years. And with children, we want to optimize them and course correct as soon as we can. 

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:13:31] Yeah. It's so interesting. I had the honor of interviewing James and I would agree, Breath is an incredible book and it made me rethink everything. The whole concept of mastication. We eat a pretty healthy diet, but realizing that most of the hyper processed foods that are here in the United States are so, I don't want to use word pre-digested, but they're just so processed that there's very little we have to do to them other than put them in our mouths and they're already kind of disintegrating. And not to mention the fact that there's so much salivary amylase in our mouths, it's just breaking down all the carbohydrate bonds. That's why you get those kind of sticky boluses of food. 

[00:14:10] Now if someone is listening and they're like, “I think I might be a mouth breather,” you mentioned mouth taping as being a first step, but doesn't address the root cause. I think the thought of surgery for a lot of adults is probably a terrifying concept or maybe even orthodontics at this stage of the game. But when you're speaking specifically to women in middle age who are already-- There's already some hormonal changes that are impacting the quality of their mouth, their teeth, their saliva inflammation, etc., What's like a starting point if you were doing a workup? You were talking to a middle-aged woman who says, “I've had an uptick in cavities, or I'm having some bone loss, or I'm just overall concerned that I have more staining on my teeth than I've had before. What are some of the initial things that you're thinking about from a dental perspective that might be able to help her navigate next steps?

Dr. Staci Whitman: [00:15:07] Yeah, great question. Well, regarding mouth breathing specifically, I mean, I think always working with an airway focused dentist is best because this is how you'll unpack the why. And then you decide, “Do I really want to completely course correct this? Or do I want to have other modalities that can at least improve my quality of life, like lip taping or mouth taping.” There are many more noninvasive ways to expand and grow the face than just traditional jaw surgery now. So, I encourage everyone just to be open to see what options there are, that's if it's skeletal.

[00:15:42] Many of us, it can be a soft tissue or muscular issue. So, this is where physical therapy or myofunctional therapy can come in that can be profoundly beneficial, certainly if you're suffering from allergies or food sensitivities, addressing those.

[00:16:00] But with a woman perimenopausal age and menopausal age, what I would want to know are I'd want to understand her oral microbiome. So, I'd suggest oral microbiome testing, which is a very easy salivary analysis where we assess for biomarkers and we actually understand the makeup of these bacteria. Because as we age, our bacteria do shift and unfortunately changes in hormone fluctuations, they can create an environment for more of these pathogens. And with some of these pathogens, these keystone pathogens, it doesn't matter how much you're brushing and flossing and how well you're eating, they're so virulent and a lot of them are spirochetes, so they're corkscrew shaped and they will disembed in tissue. And we do need more pharmaceutical or nutraceutical methodologies to address them. So, [unintelligible 00:16:48] I think is it profoundly important, but then of course, understanding your hormones too. 

[00:16:54] So working with someone trained in managing hormones, do you need hormone replacement therapy? Are there stress management techniques we can use to help get your cortisol curve more ideal? Hydration is profoundly important. Minerals in our fat-soluble vitamins too. So really just doubling down on the importance of nutrition and all the things that we know are good for our whole-body health too. It's so interesting just how they all connect. So, a lot of these are no cost, low-cost things that we can do to improve our whole-body physical health and they will have profound impacts for oral health too. So, it is working with a team, an airway trained dentist, ideally a functional dentist, of which there aren't many of us, but we are working on that. We're creating a training institution to help expand this so more dentists can practice this way. 

[00:17:42] And specifically, ideally, my mission is to create practices that work more with women's health too on these issues. As our hormones change, our muscle tone change, the tone of our tongue will change and this is where we can start mouth breathing. We have more inflammation. And even though you don't appear with redundant tissue, if you will, you're not tracking as an obese human. Unfortunately, so many very petite women have sleep-disordered breathing and they're not getting diagnosed appropriately. And it goes back again to the oral microbiome and hormones too. And so, understanding how fluctuations in estrogen and progesterone can impact oral health and we can certainly get into more specifics there, but I hate it when women are going in, asking for help and just saying brush and floss more. I mean, it's so much bigger than just hygiene. Hygiene can be so far down on the list. 

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:18:37] Well, and it's so interesting because I know when I-- My background prior to nine years ago was clinical cardiology, so inpatient, outpatient. And part of our conversations with nearly every patient was, “What's your neck size?” Especially for men, because if their neck size was greater than 17 inches, they probably had sleep apnea, so we were having those conversations. But I agree with you that there's this presumption that if you're thin, you don't have sleep apnea. And I can't tell you how many people I know just personally, when I have conversations with them. My husband included, who's a healthy weight. I mean, if he does not mouth tape, he snores. And I listen to him and he’ll have little periods of apnea where he's not breathing. And so, it becomes this running joke of, “Okay, at what point do we go beyond the mouth breathing piece?” So, I love that you brought in looking at testing the myofascial work. 

[00:19:27] If you ever want to go down for listeners, I got down a rabbit hole one day listening to a myofascial specialist who was evaluating celebrities and it was fascinating. I was like, “Okay, I thought that person had a long, narrow face,” but then you look at everyone differently. Like you said, once you see, you can't unsee and I feel like everyone I see now, I'm kind of like looking at them, wondering if they're mouth breathers as well. So, we get all these changes to the microbiome in that perimenopause to menopause transition, shifts in saliva, changes in diversity of bacteria. 

[00:19:59] I know we're also at greater risk for things like gum disease. And to your point, when I go in to see my dentist, who I like, I get the conversation, “Make sure you floss, make sure you're brushing, make sure you come back in four months and get your teeth cleaned,” but how many people are talking about how we have estrogen receptors actually in our gum tissue? And that as estrogen declines, even if we're on HRT, it impacts, like, bone resorption, it impacts collagen, as you were kind of alluding to. So, I would imagine because you also have functional training, you're probably proactively having conversations to say hormone replacement therapy is going to save the quality of not only your jawbone, but also your teeth as well. 

Dr. Staci Whitman: [00:20:43] Absolutely, yes. Yes, and going back to the apnea, I want it to be clear to the audience that these airway issues are on a continuum, and obstructive sleep apnea is end stage, and it's all the areas in between that are getting missed. So, there's dysregulated breathing, sleep-disorder breathing, breathing dysfunction, mouth breathing is usually where it starts, so this is where a lot of women get messed because we aren't that big neck girth, you know, man coming in that's overweight. So, I just want people to be aware it's a continuum. 

[00:21:17] And this is where sleep studies can be not as accurate as we'd want them to because they're really only looking for that end-stage disease, not all the upstream issues. Yeah, so changes in estrogen and progesterone, unfortunately, yes, they do impact. I mean, we tend to get more gum inflammation. This will happen in pregnancy too. Most of us experience pregnancy gingivitis, okay? No matter what we did, our gums were inflamed, they bled, they were uncomfortable. And sometimes women will report their teeth shift or maybe their bite changes. This can be from relaxing. We have little ligaments around our teeth, the periodontal ligament. So just like our ligaments are loosening preparing for our birthing journey, we will get shifts in our teeth as well. Where else do we have cartilage is the temporomandibular joint. So, as we age, many women will start to have TMD, chronic headaches. We can get into fibromyalgia. A lot of different issues that happen in the mouth and in the jaw structure, but we will get ignored or just said, “Here's some ibuprofen or here's a pharmaceutical.” 

[00:22:24] But what if, just like all these other things we're learning about hormones, what if we caught some of these things early because we were working with women early and kind of seeing the changes in their hormones, so we knew when we could slowly intervene with hormone replacement therapy. We do suffer more from periodontal disease, to your point, because bone loss. Yes, I mean, the estrogen, progesterone fluctuations, these hormone fluctuations can lead and contribute to demineralization of our bone. And this is not osteoporosis conversation, but also jawbone, okay, and shifts in the teeth. 

[00:22:57] And there's power in education and knowing this and I'm trying to work with dentists that we can help start testing. Dentistry tends to be very end-stage disease or there's a hole in the tooth, I fix that hole. And we don't really use many metrics. We're not running labs on patients and we should be. Vitamin D deficiency is a huge component of dental disease and bone loss and gum disease too. And so, sometimes as we age, we do need to go in more frequently for cleanings, but we also maybe need to tweak our diet and this is something you're specialized in. How can a woman optimize her diet and her caloric intake and how she's consuming food and all her macros and micronutrients to work with this change that we're experiencing in these phases of life? And that can all come back and support oral health too. 

[00:23:53] Knowledge is power. But knowing that if you are suffering from all of a sudden periodontal disease or shifts in the microbiome or your teeth are moving and gum disease, joint pain, this isn't in your head. This is very likely tying back truly to your hormones. And then your hormones are impacting things like your salivary health and your bone density and your microbiome as well. And so, catching these things early is so important. 

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:24:18] Well, and I think this conversation is so important. Myself, we have not had a dentist. Not because I didn't want to, I just had to bring the right person on. But I think it's so important to have these conversations because even though I have a very good dentist and a lovely dental hygienist, this information has never been shared with me. Even though I'm a clinician myself, I'm like putting all these pieces together and starting to understand like why are patients reporting to me? They're noticing shifts in their teeth. They're like, “I'm still wearing my retainer and all of a sudden, my bite is starting to change or I notice my teeth are shifting even with wearing my dental appliance.” 

[00:24:53] One of the things that I think many of us have been conditioned to believe is that we want to not be gentle when we're brushing our teeth. We want to use antimicrobial mouthwashes. Fluoride is the mainstay for preventing cavities. Help us unpack why a lot of this dental advice is actually more harmful than beneficial long term for our microbiome. 

Dr. Staci Whitman: [00:25:21] Yeah, dentistry needs a reboot. A lot of the way we practice dentistry has truly been the same as it was in the-- Of course, the technology's improved, but I wouldn't argue that the processing has much in the way we diagnose things. I want people to feel empowered to have these conversations with their providers. I mean, it is challenging, but I think this movement is going to come from the consumer and from the patient. I personally am trying to work getting dentists to think beyond the box and looking at testing and that's within our scope. And that's always the controversy, but there are so-- because the mouth is the gut. I personally think gut mapping is reasonable for a dental hygienist or a dentist to ask for if someone's in dysbiosis, certainly oral microbiome testing, vitamin D testing, micronutrient testing, and these hormone panels too. So, I think there's a slow movement happening. But sometimes you as the consumer need to take it upon yourself to request these things. And this is where somebody's working with a naturopath or a functional medicine provider might get you there sooner, but I do really believe we're missing the mark. 

[00:26:31] What's so interesting, speaking of fluoride. So, back in the early 1900s, dentists, they would prioritize vitamin D as a treatment-- Or optimizing vitamin D as a treatment for dental decay or gum disease. And they'd actually ask patients to spend more time outside. Look how far we've moved away from that. [Cynthia laughs] And this all started in the 1940s with water fluoridation. It's important for people to know too. Water fluoridation began in 1940s. Toothpaste didn't really become fluoridated until the 1960s. And dental decay was rampant, they needed something to help course correct this, but arguably we were missing the elephant in the room, which was our food. And how our food has changed, and ultra-processed foods, and essentially big foods. And that is who the real villain when it comes to oral disease. It's all back to our nutrition and our devoid foods.

[00:27:29] And flour is sugar in the mouth. These pathogenic bacteria love fermentable carbohydrates. If you eat an ancestral diet, I'm not advocating for any diet style, but I'm just speaking matter of fact, if you eat ancestral diet, you are very unlikely to suffer from dental disease. It all comes from flour and sugar in these processed foods, it really does. So, it's the crackers and the chips and the pretzels and the granola bars and the fruit snacks, etc. It's not just candy bars and soda. And so, when you know this, you can see how we're missing the mark potentially with things like fluoride. 

[00:28:04] Now, fluoride does make our teeth more acid resistant, but cavities and gum disease are still the top chronic diseases globally, even with advancements in water fluoridation and fluoride toothpaste. So, my argument would be, is this really where we should be focusing our attention on? And to your point earlier, access to care is a big issue. But so much of that comes, I believe, with educating those humans early on about the importance of diet and nutrition. And I understand this is a very complicated problem that we're facing. But this is why I started to focus more on pediatrics. I was an adult dentist for many years and was very lost as a provider because I felt like nothing I did mattered. And I knew I how do I get upstream? It was, I have to get to the parents and the kids. I need to teach this so that these don't become adults-- these children don't become adults with issues. 

[00:29:01] So, I think fluoride has a time and place, but I see plenty of patients who choose not to use it and are extremely healthy and vibrant and have no dental issues. And I see many patients that do use it and still suffer from dental issues. Fluoride is antimicrobial. I think people need to know that, which means it can damage the healthy bacteria too, not just the pathogenic bacteria. And then dentistry's always had this messaging like, it kills 99.9% of germs. This is where the mouthwash comes in and the strong astringents and alcohol mouthwashes like Listerine, you know that burn? That's carpet bombing your mouth. I mean, it's just like all this hand sanitizer and we're overbleaching and everybody now has allergies and eczema and asthma. Well, we're over disinfecting the mouth. And it goes back to what we said earlier in the show, the oral microbiome, and these agents, they're not selective, so they're killing your healthy and your bad bacteria. 

[00:30:01] And there's studies now that show people who use things like Listerine, chlorhexidine, etc., are more prone to have high blood pressure or cardiovascular issues, and why is that? Because you're killing the bacteria that produce nitric oxide, so less is more. 

[00:30:19] And what I say to patients or followers who reach out and they're like, “I have to use mouthwash. Otherwise, I have terrible bad breath and halitosis,” that is a huge red flag that there is something going on in your body. You probably have periodontal disease or an infection of some sort. You might have chronic tonsillitis, chronic sinus infections. It could be coming from the gut. But it is not normal to have this really pungent, foul bad breath. It's a red flag. And what are we doing? We're masking it. Everything we do is just masking these signs from our bodies to say, “Hey, I need help.” And it includes with cavities. If you're getting cavities, that's a sign of mineral deficiencies in the body, those vitamin deficiencies, dysbiosis. 

[00:31:05] And so it's really just a mindset shift and I do see it happening, but when we know better, we do better. What's so wonderful, I think is once you really understand how the disease process happens, you realize it's, as I mentioned, pretty low-cost, no-cost ways to stay healthy. And these things will help your entire body stay healthy too. You don't need all these expensive rinses and ointments and products necessarily. So, there are other options out there besides fluoride. There's hydroxyapatite, which is biomimetic, that is calcium and phosphorus, that's what our enamel is actually made of. Many people don't realize we have no fluoride in our teeth or our bone, but our bone and teeth are made primarily of hydroxyapatite. And so that can be really helpful if you do find you're out of balance and with our modern diets, most of us are, and we're mouth breathing and we're stressed and there's a purist mentality, but I do think a little boost in your toothpaste could beneficial. 

[00:32:05] But I do want people to start thinking of the microbiome like it's sacred. And so being careful with the alcohols, the astringents, even the essential oils. Because essential oils, while really helpful in certain contexts, they're antimicrobial. Some of them work as well as it's a topical antibiotic like oregano oil, and so time and place, but we don't want to overdo it. And people will always say, “Well, what's a good mouthwash?” I mean, I just say water and a sprinkle of baking soda and maybe some really high-quality salt for its antiseptic and the baking soda will neutralize and buffer. I mean, that is a great rinse right there. And if you find you need more, I worry that maybe you have-- You should do oral microbiome testing. I'd be very interested in the pathogens that are residing in your mouth. 

[00:32:54] What's very important too, if I may digress, some of these pathogens, unless you tested, you wouldn't know you had them. And many of them are being linked to cancer. So, F. nucleatum is a really terrible bacteria when it's out of balance and we have too much of it, and it's linked to pancreatic and colon cancer. P. gingivalis is pathogenic bacteria that we're linking to dementia and Alzheimer's. So, fertility issues can be impacted by pathogenic bacteria. It can impact egg implantation, it creates inflammation, it messes with the hormones, sperm count, mobility, motility too, all coming back from bacteria in your mouth, autoimmune diseases, mood disorders, cardiovascular issues. And I'm sure, you know, working with patients, you wanted to make sure before they had their heart surgery that their mouths were cleaned up so that they didn't get bacteremia and ruin the surgery, that can be really terrible and lead to sepsis. So, the mouth is just so, so important. 

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:34:00] I don't think it gets enough respect and yet it should. And I can't tell you how many patients had surgeries canceled because they had not had what their dentist had recommended they do, whether it was extractions or root canal. And they would be innately frustrated. They would say, “I don't understand why it's so important,” and I kept explaining them like, the last thing you want to do is get septic post surgery, that would be catastrophic. And if we really think about the mouth as this gateway to the body, we really have to think about it more proactively and not be in kind of a passive mindset. 

[00:34:36] In terms of testing, because you've mentioned oral microbiome testing, are there particular companies that you have-- I mean, we comfortable with you naming them, are there particular companies? Because there are probably people, including myself, who are just curious to know what is the composition of my oral microbiome and is it optimized? 

Dr. Staci Whitman: [00:34:53] Absolutely. Yeah and I love that. So, for those of us who are very interested in longevity and human optimization, and we're doing blood work quarterly. I'm in that camp too. And gut mapping and heavy metal testing, you really need to add this into your protocol too, at least annually, I would say. The one I like right now because it's direct to consumer is called Bristle, like a toothbrush bristle. And they use shotgun metagenomics. So, they're really sequencing your entire bacterial landscape, if you will. And they're very user friendly. They have a great interface where they actually will give you protocols. And ideally if you were working with a functional dentist, they could fine tune it a bit. But it's a wonderful starting place considering we really are at the forefront of this movement, okay. And I do see it as a movement. I think oral microbiome is going to blow up just like the gut microbiome did, that's my prediction. So, I really like Bristle. 

[00:35:52] Many periodontists or dentists who are biological dentists doing extractions and things, cavitation surgeries, they'll use a company called OralDNA, which is also amazing. They tend to only test for the top 12 or so keystone pathogens, but it's still the great snip, but that's usually through a dental provider. There's a newer company coming out called Viome and they're really doing personalized targeting too. So, this is an industry for anyone interested investing or exploring. 

[00:36:23] I will tell you this is an industry that there's a lot of attention being paid to. So, those are some that I like, but I use Bristle test myself. And I tested my mother-in-law just for fun. She's 80, she's vibrant, she pays pickleball six days a week. I mean she's incredible.

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:36:39] Amazing. 

Dr. Staci Whitman: [00:36:40] She still farms because she just loves it. She walks 20,000, 30,000 steps a day. She's outside all day, etc., Always has a good dental checkup. But I was like, “You know what? Let's just test you. You're 80.” Through the roof, F. nucleatum. And she told me I can share this. She wouldn't know that and that's linked to cancers, colon, like how many people in their 80s all of a sudden get colon cancer and we say, “Gosh, but she ate so healthy and she exercised so well, how interesting? It must be genetic.” And we say, “Not so fast, it could be from this bacteria.” So, we did a protocol on her which was pretty straightforward. It did require pharmaceuticals. We put her on some antibiotics and I know people are uncomfortable with antibiotics generally and I understand they're way overprescribed. However, risk benefit analysis. And so, she chose to do that and they’re pretty much eradicated. I mean having some pathogenic bacteria is normal, but it's all about the ratio, right? And so, we got her back into a healthy range in an optimized range, but she never would have known had she not tested. And so, this is a really important thing to do to stay healthy upstream. And I think it's a big part we're missing, especially in the biohacking and longevity crowd. We're just not talking about the oral microbiome. 

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:36:40] No, and I think it's important. You brought up a really good point. You tested and then the appropriate treatment for that particular bacteria is to address it with antibiotics. And I think we've gotten so far off course in thinking it's this all or nothing phenomenon. Like antibiotics are bad, they're overprescribed. No, that's not what we're saying. Judicious and appropriate use of antibiotics is what we're speaking to. And certainly, just like my dog just had a blood test, didn't have heartworm, but had exposure to a tick-borne illness. And I'm in an endemic part of the country for tick-borne illnesses. And my vet, “You have a 13-year-old dog, what do you want to do?” And I said, “Well, if his arthritis is being provoked by Babesia, it makes sense to address it. And what are we going to do to support his microbiome given the fact he's going to need a couple weeks of doxy.” And so, we talked about probiotics and things that we can do. So, I never want the message to be that there's not an appropriate time to utilize antibiotics. And certainly, we're speaking to several episodes where it is appropriate to do so.

[00:39:03] I would be remiss because when I was asking my community what they wanted to know about, they want to know about, number one, tongue scraping, they want to know about oil pulling. And then they asked a lot of questions around how to whiten teeth naturally. So, I know these are probably topics you get asked about a lot, but I think these are topics that people are curious about. Like is the science set on does tongue scraping really benefit? Does it improve, you know, removing, I'm presuming its biofilms from our tongue. Is that improving the oral microbiome and is it something we should be incorporating daily? 

Dr. Staci Whitman: [00:39:42] Yes, we'll tackle each one. I'm a huge fan of tongue scraping. This is ancient ayurvedic practice and it's one of those things don't knock it till you try it. But there is data behind it, too, it's data driven. And people will always ask, “Well, can I just use my toothbrush?” And it is-- The science shows it's different. You're just-- With your toothbrush, you're just moving the biofilm around. This is actually trying to-- It's removing the biofilm. 

[00:40:09] Now, what's interesting, on the dorsum of the tongue, we have these crypts. And it's down in the crypts that actually the healthy bacteria live. They tend to live down here. That's the nitric oxide beneficial. But on the top of the tongue can be a biofilm of things that we don't want, like candida and fungus and other bacteria plus food remnants that are just degrading, which is really kind of gross to think about. But it can really help with palate cleansing too, and make your food taste better. So, I do very much recommend it. I do it every morning when I wake up. People always ask me for protocols, morning or night. Honestly, you do what works for your schedule, but I tend to do it in the morning. It makes me feel alive and fresh. I feel like I'm stimulating the lymph tissue a little bit in my tongue. It gets me invigorated. And you can use stainless steel or copper. 

[00:41:03] And a tongue scraper, if you take good care of it could last your entire life. And people will say, “How do I clean it?” Just soap and water. 

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:41:10] Yeah. 

Dr. Staci Whitman: [00:41:11] If you want occasionally put rubbing alcohol or hydrogen peroxide on it, you're welcome to. What's interesting is most oral bacteria, they can't stay viable outside of the oral environment for very long, unless, of course, it's viruses. And so, if you are sick, I do recommend you-- Like, with a virus like Covid or RSV, anything, just throw your toothbrush away because you can re-inoculate yourself. So, I do love tongue scraping, and I think I would love everyone to do it. I think you will find that your mouth feels healthier and it will shift your microbiome. 

[00:41:44] What is the next one? Oil pulling. So, oil pulling is also ancient Ayurvedic practice. I also do love it, and there's science behind it too. So, traditionally it was used with sesame oil, sesame seed oil. Most people will now use like a raw organic coconut oil. And coconut oil has lauric acid in it, which is a very mild antimicrobial, but because of this, I don't love people doing it daily for the same reasons we spoke of. I don't want you wiping out the bacteria. We want to be gentle and respectful. So, I will oil pull a couple times a week. Generally, people will say, “Do it for 20 minutes.” I think that's a little excessive. I don't think many of us have time for that. So just a few minutes, and this can actually brighten and whiten leading into the next conversation. But what is it doing? It's dislodging and disrupting the biofilm, okay. 

[00:42:34] What is your biofilm in your mouth? It's the plaque. That's that fuzzy film that you get on your teeth. And people who eat more carbohydrates will have a thicker and a different quality of biofilm that those tend to eat more of a paleo type diet or veggies and meat and some fruit and things too. And this is where you'll hear, like the carnivore crowd, some of them will say, “I don't even floss and brush.” And I'm not advocating [Cynthia laughs] for that. But I think, arguably, I understand why they say this because those foods really won't cause much oral disease. But still, I want you having a hygiene routine.

[00:43:11] So, yeah, I do like oil pulling. Don't spit down your drain. It will clog your drains. Put it in your trash can. But it just makes your everything feel smoother and it will look brighter and it freshens, I think. And the big thing with the research is just the biofilm shift and the microbiome shift. So, I do that like two or three times a week. I usually do it in the morning, just for a couple minutes. I'll usually do it as I'm petering around my bedroom like making my bed or laying things out for the morning or something like that, so that's what I do. What was the last one that you mentioned? 

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:43:48] Can we whiten our teeth safely? 

Dr. Staci Whitman: [00:43:50] Yeah. So, hydrogen peroxide used daily is not my recommendation. I know it is a social media craze and it does work and it will get you blinding white teeth. But we need to think about what is it doing? And so, it really can trash your microbiome and just change. Some people will get really bad sensitivity too. So, it can affect and impact your enamel health and make your enamel thinner. So, risk, benefit, that's when I would say there's more risk than benefit. If you want to do it here and there, okay. Just be cautious. Charcoal toothpaste and things were popular for a while. I think people are catching on, they're too abrasive. 

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:44:34] Yeah. 

Dr. Staci Whitman: [00:44:34] So, these can be stripping your enamel away too. And once your enamel's gone, everyone, it doesn't really-- It doesn't come back. And this is where you get thinning and sensitivity and weaker teeth, and this is where they can fracture and micro fracture. Baking soda again, I think is wonderful. Going in more regularly for cleanings. There's some indication in the research that things like strawberries can lift stain out, which you would think is counterintuitive, but it has some enzymes in it that can brighten and lighten. Coconut oil can do that. Hydroxyapatite, interestingly, there's actually white papers that show that nanohydroxyapatite can brighten teeth by a few shades. But all of these things, they do relapse, especially if you're drinking coffee and wine and chocolate and berries and these things too. And then there are over-the-counter bleaching agents. There's a brand called Lumino that they use things like the strawberries and the enzymes I mentioned and some essential oils. 

[00:45:36] You're not-- If you're looking for the Hollywood bright white, you're just not going to get that through natural means. So, we have to remember a lot of the celebrities that we see, they're either photoshopped or they have veneers. So, it's very hard to achieve. And so, it just depends on your end goal and then just being cautious of foods that stain too. 

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:45:56] Yeah, I think it's so interesting because I feel like it has become a phenomenon. We just came back from being overseas and I was saying to my husband, I think we've gotten so-- like, it's so normalized that people have blindingly white teeth, whether it's on TV or movies. And the realization that I think there are far more people-- No judgment, I mean, no judgment whatsoever. You do you as I always say. But the degree and the amount of people that have veneers, even at very young ages has been so normalized that I think a lot of what we perceive are super white teeth are actually just veneers. And I'm curious from a—

[00:46:34] And I don't know enough about this, so this is a genuine question. From a dental perspective, when someone is trimming down their teeth to be able to have a veneer put over it or a crown. Can we speak to the fact that this is like a permanent change? You can't reverse what you've had done. And I would imagine people have multiple sets of veneers over their lifetime. It's probably not a one and done. It's like putting like a-- The way that I was explaining to my kids was saying it's like if a woman wants to have press on nails, that's kind of-- Except that you're not trimming your nail all the way down. But when we see turkey teeth, I can't believe I'm going to admit this, but I'm always fascinated by the things people do to their teeth. And so, when I watch people file down their teeth and then get veneers, I'm like, “Ouch, that just looks super painful.” I'm curious from your perspective, like what is going on behind the scenes that concerns you as a dental expert? 

Staci Whitman: [00:47:27] Yeah. Yes, I've seen these trends too, and it breaks my heart where these beautiful young 20 somethings, I mean every tooth is just filed down. Now, I will say there are no prep or low prep veneers, but I just want to say anytime you put anything in the mouth it’s changing your microbiome. 

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:47:49] Yeah. 

Dr. Staci Whitman: [00:47:50] Anything, a filling, a crown, a veneer. These are things we don't think about. So that's going to create a margin or ledge or a place for biofilm to accumulate and potentially pathogens to develop and this is where we start to get the bad breath and etc. And nothing in dentistry lasts forever, nothing. So, the minute you put a drill to a tooth, this seems severe, but you're kind of starting--

[00:48:17] This is what the extremists will say, like the death cycle of that tooth. Now that can be dramatic. But what does that mean? A small filling, eventually 10 years later needs to be replaced. It becomes a medium filling and then 10 years after that becomes a large filling and then five years after that, it fractures. And now it can't have a filling, it needs an inlay and onlay and then flash forward and it needs a crown, then it needs a root canal, then it needs an implant. So, it's just this perpetual cycle. 

[00:48:43] And the thing with veneers, yeah, they pop off, they fracture. It's always when you're at an event. I mean, I'm not a personal fan of them for myself. Again, I agree with you. You do you, we all need to do what makes us feel the best inside and out. But I'd encourage you-- Sometimes getting Invisalign and that seems like, “Gosh, I don't want that commitment,” but it's such a shorter commitment actually than having veneers for the rest of your life. Shifting your teeth and maybe whitening them a little bit. And maybe you do the more extreme whitening in the office, just once, you'd be so surprised how that can just change your confidence and putting something artificial. 

[00:49:22] It breaks my heart. I have so many parents come in. So, when adult teeth erupt, a child around six, adult teeth are a little darker than baby teeth. And this is because they are more mineralized, which is good. Adult teeth are more resilient. It's why baby teeth resorb and fall out. They're less mineralized. But because of that, baby teeth are really bright and white. And so, the adult teeth come in next to the baby tooth. And a lot of times the parents are worried, just saying, “Oh, my child's teeth are too yellow,” often in front of the child, so I'd suggest, please don't do that, please don’t do that. You're giving them a complex they don't even know about. But that tooth shade is actually normal. That is a normal human species shade of tooth. And so just like everything, we've lost sight of what's real. And maybe that's what you want. You just want an aesthetic that isn't realistic. But I think just trying to shift your mindset a little bit about what-- Especially if you're trying to live a more natural life, that blinding white teeth is not how humans evolved. We just didn't evolve that way. And so, yeah, giving yourself some grace, I think would be good. 

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:50:36] Yeah, absolutely. And just to clarify, so if someone gets braces or has Invisalign, I would imagine it has an impact on the microbiome, but not as significant as some of these other entities that we've discussed already. 

Dr. Staci Whitman: [00:50:51] To me, it's more short term. So, you might have it for 18 months as opposed to the rest of your life. So again, it's risk benefit, and this is why you need to work with a provider and see what your treatment plan would be and what your options would be. But especially too from an airway standpoint, if you're struggling with mouth breathing and sleep-disordered breathing, and if you could-- They're doing really cool stuff with expansion in adults and it's not perfect per se, but it's better than when you started if you're up for the commitment. 

[00:51:24] Again, it's risk v. benefit. So, people will say, “Well, I don't want the metal retainers in my mouth or I don't want the plastics,” and I get this. No material in dentistry is perfect. There are cleaner materials, but nothing is perfect, but it's risk versus benefit. And so, for me, airway health and sleep trumps everything, everything. Microplastics, metal, everything, because it is a short window too. And then you can support yourself in your detox pathways in other ways too. But this is why we go for consultations, is to get information. 

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:51:57] Yeah. And I think this is so helpful because I'm thinking about, I was one of those people who had a high-arched palate. I had a lot of teeth taken out of my mouth for braces. The irony being my permanent retainer broke. And in that amount of time between when it broke and then I saw that another orthodontist, my teeth had shifted enough, my bite was off. So, I'm almost done with Invisalign for my lower teeth and it's been amazing to me. My bite now is so much better than it ever was. And so, I'm so grateful to have that. But the whole time realizing I've got plastic in my mouth, I'm like, “Okay, this is temporary.” And so, for full transparency, just to share that, it's like for a short term-- Like a long-term gain, I have a year of my life where I have this inconvenience. 

[00:52:44] Before we kind of wrap up our conversation today, when you're working with middle-aged women looking in their mouths, I would imagine that a woman that is on hormone replacement therapy, her mouth probably looks much different than someone who's 10 years, 15 years into menopause. Is there anything that you want to share with listeners to help encourage them if they're not having the conversation about hormone replacement therapy and perimenopause or beginning of menopause. From your perspective as a dental expert, what are the things you want them to understand that's happening that you're seeing from your perspective in their mouths? 

[00:53:20] I know we've touched on some of these things, but anything else that you want to add to that conversation, whether it's women that talk about having burning mouth syndrome, women that are having issues with taste changes, changes in-- I guess a lot of women will complain to me about having a metallic taste in their mouths. And I don't know if that's a direct byproduct of those hormonal fluctuations. I would imagine it might be. 

Dr. Staci Whitman: [00:53:44] Yeah, zinc and B deficiencies and things. Well, I think this is profoundly helpful, so thank you for this platform. I mean it all comes down to education and knowledge is power. So, I don't want to ever make it seem it's too late, but the earlier that we can start these conversations to stay ahead of it is better. But it's never too late to course correct. So, if you stay ahead of it and you're working with your physician and you're testing your hormones, maybe every year, every other year, just as we move into the perimenopause year before we're actually there and then certainly as we head into menopause, it's just trying to stay ahead of it and it can really help prevent issues with bone loss. 

[00:54:29] Once you lose bone around your teeth, unfortunately there's just no way to grow it back quite yet. We can't reinvigorate and rejuvenate it yet. We'll see what happens with technology, but we don't want it to get worse either. So, if you're starting to see a of lot of shifts and changes in your mouth, I mean, I hope this conversation has been a light bulb's gone off and maybe now it will prompt you to go get that DUTCH test or go work with your naturopath or functional medicine doctor or the hormone expert that you know just to see where you are at because if we can address some of these imbalances that you will see shifts in your mouth and I see it all the time. 

[00:55:05] Once women know what's going on in their body and we make some adjustments. Well, I don't, but they go on hormone replacement therapy or there's different lifestyle factors that are recommended to them, they implement, you know, whether it's sleep or stress management, nutritional changes, upping nutrients, etc. You see it in their mouth. I mean their tissues look healthier, firmer. Their salivary health looks better. They say they feel better. I mean to your point, sometimes they're bite will feel better too. If you have issues with collagen and your bites kind of slowly shifting that throws off everything in the system. Your bite is such a stabilizer for your posture and your centering, not to mention the vagus nerve innervates so much in the mouth. 

[00:55:51] I mean we can go really rabbit hole in some of this, but it's very important. And then I wanted to mention to you too, you may want to look into to myofunctional therapy too. When muscles aren't balanced, this is when things can relapse, so, but I think just staying ahead of it. I'm a big fan of micronutrient testing too, because even myself, I mean, I feel like I eat so well and I supplement so well, and sometimes out of nowhere, I'll take my lab-- I run labs a lot of myself, and just out of nowhere, I'll be super deficient in something, you know and--

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:56:27] “My NutrEval was enlightening,” let's just put it that way. And, like, “I'm doing all the right things.” And I remember when we went over and I just about fell out of my chair, I was like, “Oh, my gosh,” and that's why I think these conversations are so important, because if I wasn't and you weren't leading such healthy lives, I can't imagine how much different that micronutrient test would have been. I mean, I was shocked at the things I was deficient in, but now, I’m on-- 

Dr. Staci Whitman: [00:56:50] I know it’s [crosstalk]

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:56:51] Yep, now I'm on targeted supplementation and we're all good, but I was shocked. I would never have guessed. 

Dr. Staci Whitman: And this is bio individualized medicine, and this is why they love social media. And I love podcast platforms and things, but the nuances with the individual and we're all different. And an example for me, I was shocked I was so deficient in magnesium. I take so much magnesium every day. I take bio-optimizers, I take L3 and I take so much. 

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:57:21] We'll talk after we're done because I'll tell you the tricks to find your magnesium.

Staci Whitman: [00:57:25] I attribute to maybe it's my gut microbiome or how am I utilizing it and am I pairing it with the right things to optimize it, like my vitamin D and K2 and my calcium, where it's all a balance. And so, I'm just a big believer in information. And I think once we have information, we can make better decisions for ourselves. 

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:57:47] Well, thank you again for this conversation. I'll have to have you back. Please let listeners know how to connect with you outside of this podcast, how to get access to you if they would like to work directly with you?

Staci Whitman: [00:57:59] Absolutely. My website is doctorstaci.com and doctor spelled out S-T-A-C-I. And I have a lot of handouts and guides and things. You can find consultations there. Right now, I am limiting to the pediatric population, but I am fine tuning a program for women's health too. So please stay tuned for that. And I'm working on a practice model for this as well. And then I do hang out on Instagram a lot. It's @doctor_staci. I have an oral healthcare line that if people are interested- 

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:58:32] Oh good. 

Dr. Staci Whitman: -in our biomimetic materials. There's a lot on my website you can look on. And I try to-- Social media is tricky to educate. I know you understand this as much as you want to, but I try to give as much as I can in the time I have. But then I have a newsletter, and it's in my newsletter, I really unpack a lot of these topics. 

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:58:53] Awesome. Thank you again for your time. 

Staci Whitman: [00:58:54] Thank you so much. 

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