Ep. 481 Alcohol’s Impact on the Brain, Hormones, and Cancer Risk with Dr. Brooke Scheller

I am delighted to reconnect with Dr. Brooke Scheller today. She is a doctor of Clinical Nutrition, an author, and the founder of Functional Sobriety, a nutrition-based program for alcohol reduction.

In our discussion, we explore current trends and shifts in alcohol use and what it means to be sober-curious. Dr. Scheller shares insights on how to have conversations about alcohol use with teenagers and young adults, on recognizing the signs of blackouts and binge drinking, and on the brain changes and elevated cancer risks associated with alcohol use. She also offers her perspective on using GLP-1s to reduce or prevent alcohol cravings, highlights the physiological differences in how alcohol affects men and women, and clarifies how to support the natural detoxification pathways of the body when consuming alcohol or navigating a sober-curious lifestyle.

This valuable and insightful conversation with Dr. Brooke Scheller is essential listening for anyone seeking a healthier approach to alcohol use.

IN THIS EPISODE, YOU WILL LEARN: 

• How awareness and acceptance of sobriety and reduced alcohol consumption are growing

• The value of approaching alcohol reduction as a proactive health decision

• The long-term effects of alcohol on cortisol levels and overall health

• The importance of addressing your relationship with alcohol before counseling teenagers or young adults on alcohol use  

• The potential neurological risks and brain effects of long-term alcohol use

• How alcohol use is linked to seven types of cancer

• The potential benefits and limitations of GLP-1s for managing alcohol cravings

• The different ways in which alcohol affects men and women

• Some simple ways to support detoxification 

Bio:

Brooke Scheller, DCN, CNS

Dr. Brooke Scheller, Doctor of Clinical Nutrition, stands at the forefront of a transformative movement in health and wellness. As the esteemed founder of Functional Sobriety and the author of "How to Eat to Change How You Drink," Dr. Scheller has dedicated her career to revolutionizing the approach to alcohol recovery and holistic well-being.

Inspired by her journey to sobriety in 2021, Dr. Scheller embarked on a mission to empower others to reclaim their lives through nutrition and functional medicine. Drawing upon her extensive expertise, she crafted an innovative approach that not only liberates individuals from the grips of alcohol but also fosters profound improvements in brain health, mood regulation, energy levels, focus, gut health, and hormone balance.

In 2022, Dr. Scheller launched Functional Sobriety, a groundbreaking approach that has since garnered global recognition and acclaim. Serving as a beacon of hope for those seeking an alcohol-free lifestyle, Functional Sobriety provides a comprehensive platform encompassing a supportive wellness community, educational resources on alcohol recovery through nutrition, and pioneering custom supplement solutions tailored for both the sober and the sober-curious.

Beyond her role as a visionary entrepreneur, Dr. Scheller is a motivational speaker, captivating audiences with her passionate advocacy for functional nutrition, alcohol-free wellness, and the transformative power of sobriety.

For further insights and guidance on your journey to wellness, connect with Dr. Brooke Scheller on Instagram (@drbrookescheller) or visit her websites at brookescheller.com and functionalsobriety.com.

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“The US Surgeon General released a new advisory statement in 2025, linking alcohol to seven different types of cancer.”

– Dr. Brooke Scheller

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Connect with Dr. Brooke Scheller

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Transcript:

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:00:01] Welcome to Everyday Wellness Podcast. I'm your host, Nurse Practitioner Cynthia Thurlow. This podcast is designed to educate, empower and inspire you to achieve your health and wellness goals. My goal and intent is to provide you with the best content and conversations from leaders in the health and wellness industry each week and impact over a million lives.

[00:00:29] Today, I had the honor to reconnect with friend and colleague Dr. Brooke Scheller. She's a doctor of clinical nutrition, author and founder of the Functional Sobriety, a nutrition-based program for alcohol reduction. Today, we spoke at length about trends and shifts in alcohol use and being sober curious, the impact of personal choices, how to have conversations with our teenagers and young adults about alcohol use, signs of blackouts and binge drinking, the impact of changes to our brains, in particular relevant to alcohol use as well as elevated cancer risks, her personal thoughts and perspectives on the utilization of GLP-1s to either stop or blunt cravings for alcohol use, differences between men and women in terms of how alcohol affects our bodies, and last but not least, the impact of toxins and how to support our body's natural detoxification pathways when we are consuming alcohol and navigating a sober curious lifestyle.

[00:01:37] I know you will find this to be an invaluable conversation, one you will listen to likely more than once. 

[00:01:43] I think the one thing that I would say, Brooke, that from our conversation, which obviously was incredibly popular with my community, is it gives people permission to explore changing their relationship with alcohol. And I think that is, the impetus of your work. My work is really getting people to think about, like, what is no longer serving you. And do you feel like-- over the course of the last year since we last connected formally, do you feel like there's greater awareness around being sober curious or just not drinking alcohol at all? 

Dr. Brooke Scheller: [00:02:20] Yeah, I think there's been a lot of shifts and I think that what we see from an industry perspective is changing. And I think that what I've recognized in joining the space back in 2021, 2022, at that time, it was so much more around sobriety and you were either one way or the other, it was still kind of that split lens. And over the years, I've watched it change, I've watched it open up and I've watched more people who are just in that contemplation stage be ready to think about it or talk about it. And that's really my goal is having people just get that little light bulb turn on and say, “Maybe this is something I need to start thinking about.” 

[00:03:15] And it's very interesting because I think looking at the different areas that alcohol touches, when it comes to wellness, it's always been this like, other than thing, right? It's like, unless you have a problem and you're going to go get help and seek treatment, you're going to be over here. But there's more openness within the wellness space to talk about it and talk about how it influences fasting, how it influences hormones, how it influences the gut microbiome. And so now we're seeing a lot of other big voices in the space talk about it, and I think that's really important. 

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:03:55] Well, I recall that Huberman Lab did a podcast on alcohol. We have three dogs, which makes me sound like a crazy person, and my husband and I walk them every morning. And I said to him, “You really need to listen to this podcast.” And he looked at me and he's like, “No, I enjoy my cocktail on Friday and Saturday night. And I don't want to give up alcohol.” And I said, “No, no I'm not telling you that you need to change your relationship with alcohol.” I'm just saying I think when you really listen to the research and he's an engineer, so he loves data. I said, “I think when you listen to the information, it may just change your perspective. Not to suggest there's right or wrong, but that's listening may have a differing opinion on their relationship with certain things, including alcohol.”

[00:04:42] And I've always very transparently said, I think a lot of my relationship or lack thereof is heavily influenced by an alcoholic parent and seeing the things that came out of their relationship with alcohol. But I love that when I go to events now, I feel like this is a frequent topic of conversation, not from a place of judgment, but just from a place of clarity. I think a lot of people, when I speak to them, they'll say things like, “You know, I always felt intense pressure to drink. And now this has given me an opportunity to reexamine my relationship with alcohol and to decide if it really serves me or not.” And I think that is what I find to be really exciting. 

Dr. Brooke Scheller: [00:05:21] Yeah, it is now like socially acceptable to not drink. A lot of times when I'm having these discussions. I presented a nurses’ conference a few weeks ago and I shared with them a slide where I say, “Less alcohol is now cool.” Like not drinking is now something that you used to even five years ago, you would say, “Oh, I'm not drinking. And people are asking why you're getting pressure.” Now, there's so much discussion in the space about it that you tell someone you're quitting or you're cutting back, and they're like, “Oh, how are you feeling? What, did you read something?” You know, they're interested in learning more, and it opens up this conversation and it takes away some of the shame and the stigma that has surrounded this topic for so long. 

[00:06:06] And I always tell clients that health is a great way into alcohol reduction or elimination. Even if there is dysfunctional relationship, there's alcohol use disorder. Putting all that to the side, if you lead into it from this space of, I'm doing this for my health, my physical health, my mental health, my gut health, whatever that might be, that it changes the discussion and it changes the perception that others have too. And I always use this example of, like, if you're out and someone says, “Oh, why don't you have something to drink?” And you could say, “Oh, well, I'm trying not to drink right now.” And, could close down about it. Or you could come at it from this space of empowerment where, like, you know what? I'm not drinking and I feel great. 

[00:06:57] My sleep's been better, my mood's been better, my energy's been better. And then people aren't going to pressure you. They go, “Oh, dang. All right, that sounds pretty good. I might be interested in trying that.” So, a lot of it is how we think about it and our own personal relationship with it too. 

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:07:11] Well, and it's interesting because I think finding that reframe, that positive perspective, it allows for you to communicate what you're choosing to do and do it from a place of empowerment and not, as you stated, shame. It's interesting, wonderful neighbors of ours had us over and they were so stressed overthinking the fact that I didn't drink. And I said, “Listen, I'm the person that will show up with my own, like, you don't need to worry about me. I'm totally cool.” I just know because they were asking “When did you decide to stop drinking alcohol at all?” And I said, “During the pandemic, just because there was no socialization.” I said, but the one thing that really stood out to me was, “Oh, my gosh, like, my sleep is so precious at this stage of life.” 

[00:07:56] What is the one thing I can do to myself if I want to ensure I have a really terrible night of sleep, have that martini, have that glass of wine, because you know what's going to happen. You're going to fall asleep, but you're not going to stay asleep. And then your blood sugar is going to be dysregulated and then you're not going to make good food choices when you get up in the morning. And I said, I think sleep has now become a greater focus in this stage of life, like my quality of sleep. And so, I always say, very transparently when people ask, I'm like, “Listen, my sleep is too precious.” And that is what works for me personally. I have girlfriends that will share things like, “Oh yeah, I had that birthday martini. And guess what?” [laughs]  

[00:08:32] So, they'll say, this is a once-a-year thing or this is every couple of months thing. And I accept that I know what the effects will be. But I wanted to enjoy that moment and I said, that's absolutely fine. I think just building awareness on number one, how you feel and number two, understanding, like you're making a choice. And that choice just like if I decide to have a bunch of gluten-free brownies, it'll taste good in the moment and I know what's going to happen after the fact it's a choice. And then you're like, “Okay, I will accept the consequences of this choice in this moment because I want to enjoy X, Y or Z.

Dr. Brooke Scheller: [00:09:06] Exactly. And I think that the more time we spend away from it, the more we can see how it's actually making us feel. When we are drinking every Friday and Saturday or a few times during the week and on the weekends. It's in our system enough that we don't even really know what we feel like at baseline. One of the things about cortisol and the way that alcohol impacts cortisol levels, it takes seven days for cortisol levels to regulate after a night of heavy drinking. So, even if you drink once a week, you're hardly getting back to that baseline state before you're then spiking that cortisol again. So, I like to share that because the argument is always, well, it helps my stress and stress is bad for me too. 

[00:10:02] So, what's the kind of solution there? And I think most people don't understand that it is actually worsening stress. Even if it feels like it's giving you that short-term relief, you're ending up with this elevated cortisol the next day and that's going to carry over for several days after that.

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:10:21] I think that's really significant because it isn't just cortisol. If your cortisol goes up, your glucose goes up. If your glucose goes up, your insulin goes up. And I think for a lot of individuals, they're not making those connections. And I say this as the parent of two teenagers. I have one that's in college and we just came back from vacation. And I'm actually one of those parents that, if we're on vacation and my kids want to have a beer or a glass of wine, I don't think it's a big deal. But what's interesting is my 19-year-old shares very openly the things, the behaviors that he himself, as fraternity brothers, as lacrosse guys, as friends, the things they do in college and they are not thinking about any of these things. The cortisol, the dysregulation of glucose, none of these things. 

[00:11:07] And it's interesting to see generationally and so obviously I'm a middle-aged person and I have two teenagers. It's interesting to hear their perception of their relationship with alcohol and their perception of binge drinking, their perception of, “I don't drink during the week, I just party on the weekends.” So, I'm curious, you know, in the work that you have done in terms of looking at life stages of individuals, and there are a lot of listeners that have teenagers, young adults, how do you like to counsel parents about being realistic? Because I am a realist. I'm also a healthcare provider. 

[00:11:47] So, I'll sometimes say to my son that-- sometimes I have to turn off my healthcare provider brain and just be a parent and just helping build awareness around like what constitutes binge drinking, why blacking out is not benign. We had a whole conversation around that because he was talking about some friends and I said, that's not benign. I really need you to understand that. So, from your perspective, from an educational, research-based perspective, when you're talking to younger adults, how can we make them more aware of some of the choices that they embrace at this stage of life? Because we all know their brains are not fully developed, their prefrontal cortex, until they're like 25. So, they're going to make stupid choices. It's just part of the maturation process. And by no means am I condoning underage drinking. I'm just being realistic here. How do we counsel our children? How do we talk to them about alcohol use and the things that they need to be aware of.

Dr. Brooke Scheller: [00:12:46] Yeah, that's a great question. And I think first and foremost we start with ourselves and our own relationships with alcohol. If we feel like we have an unhealthy relationship with alcohol that is seen by our family members, our children included, and that's not to say or shame anyone for past experiences, especially if you're on this journey. Because I work with so many women who come in and ultimately change their relationship or quit drinking and they have a lot of shame about the experiences that they've had in front of their children or the way that their drinking may have influenced their children. But really getting to a point where if we can feel more comfortable about talking about the topic, then we can feel more comfortable in sharing that with our children.

[00:13:38] I'll use an example of one gal that I work with and she's got a younger son, he is 12 years old, and she's two plus years into her alcohol-free journey and she's strengthened her relationship with her son in so many ways. It's one of the greatest things that she's found in this process is she can be more open and honest with him emotionally. She can sit down with him and talk to him about the dangers of these things and because of her own experiences, she can share those with him and influence him in those ways. What's quite interesting to me in terms of generational changes around drinking is that we see Gen Z is driving a lot of the change in alcohol consumption, so they tend to drink less than the previous generations. 

[00:14:29] However, like your sons, I have young family members and know others who are in that, kind of young drinking cycle and very relatable because I had those experiences myself and I think the best that we can do is talk to them about it and those of us who are sober, alcohol free, sober curious, have conversations with our loved ones, our kids, and just open up and make that conversation more accessible to them. Again, as I stated, like less alcohol is cool now. And so, I think it's something that we can present to them in a different way. Whereas I know when I was a teenager, young, 20 something, I was having a conversation about this recently with someone. 

[00:15:17] What I saw on, I grew up in the era where it was all the reality TV shows, it was Real World and Jersey Shore, which we're from, [Cynthia laughs] and all of those people that glorified and glamorized getting blackout drunk and normalizing that. And so, you do those things because you're being shown that way and things are changing now. So, I think we can have that impact on others. We can help them assess that behavior a little bit earlier on and talk to them from a place of openness and honesty. I think one thing that is really beautiful about the generation that's coming up today is they seem to have stronger relationships or more open relationships with their parents where they feel comfortable talking about these things more openly. And that isn't maybe something that was as available in the past generationally. So, it is definitely a difficult topic. But I think it. It really starts with addressing our own relationship with alcohol and then how that influences our children. 

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:16:26] No, I think you bring up so many good points. Number one, I think that I 100% agree with you that the relationship I have with my sons is so different, like, night and day, different from the relationship I had with my parents. I would not have dared to share the things that my kids will share. And I say this, like, I'm so proud of that. Like, it reaffirms that they feel like it's a very safe place to share. I will also share with my community. Last summer, we rented a lake house, and my younger son's best friend came with us. He's a great kid. One point at dinner, he looked at me and he's like, “Mrs. Thurlow, I cannot believe the things the boys talk about at dinner.” And I said, “I take great pride in that.” 

[00:17:10] They feel comfortable. They know that we're going to listen without judgment. I tell them all the time, there's nothing you could ever do that would make me change the way that I love you. So, I want you to always feel like it's a super safe place. But it also means, like, they'll share things with me about things-- they're concerned about or behaviors they see in others and helping them process what they're experiencing. But it's also like, they'll tell me stupid things they've done. And I'm like, “Oh, my God.” In the back of my head, I'm like, “poker face, poker face.” I don't want them to know that there's any shock value in what they're sharing. But I do think that this generation seems to be much more aware, much more conscientious.

[00:17:51] I mean, it's interesting. Even conversations around drug use, which I know is not something we've talked a lot about on this podcast, but the conversations, the things that they'll share with me about peers are doing or silly things people are doing or choosing to engage in, and how my kids are able to feel strong and confident enough in their own choices that they don't feel a sense of peer pressure, which I think is great, because back in the day growing up in New Jersey, there was lot of pressures in different ways growing up. So, I agree with you. There is the societal pressures, there's social media pressure. Maybe reality TV doesn't have as much of an influence now. I think it's been so normalized. 

Dr. Brooke Scheller: [00:18:30] Social media.

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:18:31] Yeah, social media.

Dr. Brooke Scheller: [00:18:32] Social media I think, is the one that's taking the cake for the kids these days. And there is still a lot of that kind of party culture and all of that normalization. And it's so important what you shared about your relationship with your sons, because just being that safe space and even if their choices are that they're drinking, they're still opening up to you, and it's giving you an opportunity to say, “Mm-hmm make sure to kind of reinforce these thoughts around safety and ensuring that, they are thinking it through in a healthy way.” 

Cynthia Thurlow: I think one of the things I was happy to hear and not at all surprised about, I know back a million years ago when I was in college, I was in a sorority, and so there was always a dedicated sober driver.  We really looked out for one another. And they're even more so now. There's no man left behind is what they usually will say [chuckles]. My college age son will say no man is left behind ever, unless they choose to be left behind, like they're dating someone or going somewhere. But I think that maybe it's a degree of maturity in some ways that this generation is affirmed, whether it's the pandemic, whether it's just the way that things are. 

[00:19:44] I think that they are far more worldly and sophisticated than I think I ever was at that stage of life. And so, I sometimes kind of sit back and I'm so humored by it, I'm like, “Wow, that's kind of a cool thing.” I do want to ask you about binge drinking, and I do want to ask you about blacking out. And I say this because I've had enough conversations with my kids over the last couple months that I think that's one area where I don't think it registers for them. Like, they don't perceive it's excessive. They don't think it's a big deal if they pass out drunk or blackout. And so, what is the significance of episodes of drinking that are so heavy that people don't remember what they were doing? I'm not talking about you're drunk, you stumble home, you fall asleep. People who have periods of time where they have no recollection of what they were doing or saying. 

Dr. Brooke Scheller: [00:20:32] Yeah, I'll go back to speaking about the normalization of these things. Like I can say in my experience that when I was in college that someone would black out. It was, “Haha, we made it home safe, like no big deal.” The next day it's a different person that blacks out. And it's kind of like it's normalized. So, we look at it and we go, well this, that's just like what happens. That's just what we do. And what happens in the body when we're “blacking out” is we're affecting the center of the brain that influences memory development. So, I always point out and this is a little elementary, but alcohol is a toxin, it's a poison. When we feel the effects of alcohol, like we can't walk in a straight line, we can't speak clearly. That is the effect of a toxin on our nervous system, influencing our brain, influencing our limbs.

[00:21:30] And when we think about it that way and we perceive it in that way, I think it has a deeper that, “Oh wow, this is like literally poisoning my body.” That is why we will vomit if we've drank too much because our body is saying “I need to get this out.” And I think there's so much normalization around it. And many people have had these experiences and that it is almost part of like the “fun” of the aftermath of the drinking, of talking about “Oh, you did this silly thing or oh, you did that.” 

[00:22:03] And I can't speak for young men, but I can speak for young women that looking back, that's a really scary experience to have to wake up and really not know how you got to where you are. And hopefully you're home and you're safe in your own bed. But people have these experiences where they wake up somewhere that they didn't expect to wake up. And that may have been consensual or nonconsensual. And it's scary to think back of that loss of control and that loss of decision making. And so, I will wrap it up in a bow with this to say that the blacking out isn't necessarily normal. It isn't necessarily something that we should all be experiencing. 

[00:22:51] And I caution you, and maybe challenge you to think about it in a different way, that it is something that is having potentially even a longer term impact on your brain because of what we see so much now in the science and research of the influence of alcohol on the brain, that these are things that can be affecting our risk of dementia or Alzheimer's down the line, our risk of Parkinson's or other neurological conditions. And I know for me in my recovery journey, my nervous system is shot. Stress is very, very intense on my body. And I don't discount the fact that I consumed a lot of alcohol for a long time and how those two things may be connected. Yeah, it's a sign that we're getting to a point that's a bit too far.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, it's interesting. And again, I try to be really transparent with listeners. The conversations of how college students think that being blackout drunk, as they call it, is super benign. And add in the concerns that individuals have about, informed consent or being able to consent to things that you do when you're under the influence adds another layer of complexity to your point about how alcohol over time can change the brain physiologically and anatomically. I will share that last year my father, who was a long-term alcoholic, was starting to have a series of falls and were trying to figure out why, which I think I knew why he was falling, but I just wanted him to admit to it. 

[00:24:28] And so he had a series of falls, he ended up developing a couple head bleeds, ended up in the trauma neuro ICU at a hospital. And in the middle of the night, my brother and I had to go to the hospital and make some decisions for my dad's care. And the first thing out of my mouth when I was talking to the trauma surgeon was “I want to make sure you understand my dad is a long-term alcoholic.” And he said, “Oh, I didn't even need you to tell me that.” He was like, “Here's the three things on this CT that I can see that tell me this is beyond just age-related atrophy of the brain,” which means your brain shrinks as you get older, [laughs] like many other things too.

[00:25:05] And so it was both validating and then also like, you know, if you slowly are over time consistently overtly poisoning your body and your brain, your brain will respond accordingly. And so, it was very telling to have that conversation where they were like, “Oh, we already-- Thank you for sharing that, but we already knew.” So, I think that for so many of us, it's just understanding, there are times in our lives where we may have more alcohol use and just understanding that if it's a short duration of few years, that's very different than a lifetime of excessive use. And so, making sure we wrap that up with the understanding that for a couple years, there's excessive use, that's very different than a lifetime of excessive use where people really do incur long-term damage from the toxin that is alcohol. 

Dr. Brooke Scheller: [00:25:53] Yeah. And there's research that came out in 2022 that shows that even that one or two drinks per day does influence gray matter, white matter volume in the brain. So, we see that increased aging process with alcohol even within that standard one to two government recommended drinks per day. And that's a part of a body of research that I often use a lot in these discussions of I think for many years we saw all the positive effects of alcohol in our research. And now really 2021 and beyond, a lot of what we see is more in alignment with. Yes, even at these low levels, it's influencing the brain, it's influencing our cardiovascular system negatively, increasing cancer risk, which is seen that new. We could talk about that 2025 Surgeon General Advisory that came out in January. So, we're really seeing a lot of shift in the opposite direction now. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, let's talk about that 2025 Surgeon General Advisory paper because I think this is really interesting. And then it's objectively sharing information that maybe can help people make different decisions. 

Dr. Brooke Scheller: [00:27:09] Yeah. So, what I find to be very interesting is we haven't had a change in what the recommended alcohol intake is since the 1990s. That document, the Dietary Guidelines for Americans put out by the USDA every five years. And we haven't seen it change in 35 years. And there's been shifts in science and we've seen changes in other topics like sugar and fats and those kinds of things. And so, there's a lot of discussion right now because it's 2025 and the USDA is supposed to release that new Dietary Guidelines this year. And we've seen over the last few years that the World Health Organization has put out a statement that no amounts of alcohol is safe. Canada released some new guidance in 2022 lowering their recommendations for alcohol intake. And then there's this contentious environment right now. 

[00:28:09] Actually, last week from when we're recording this, there was an article that came out that said they might actually drop the alcohol recommendations from the dietary guidelines. And I think this has to do with the push pull of. They realize that maybe they're too high and there's a lot of lobbying and industry behind alcohol that is pushing to not decrease that number but one of these stark US changes that happened in first few days of January 2025, the US Surgeon General released this new advisory statement essentially linking alcohol to seven different types of cancer that includes the throat, the liver, of course, breast cancer, and a handful of others. And really showing that there's a direct link between alcohol and cancer.

[00:29:04] One of the things that I think is most interesting from the paper is that only 45% of Americans know that alcohol increases risk of cancer. It's less than half. But when you look at the other carcinogens equivalent to alcohol, like asbestos and tobacco and radiation, 80%, 90% of Americans know that these are cancer causing. We've seen the ads about tobacco. We hear about, okay, asbestos and mesothelioma. We know that these things are cancer causing. And yet such a small amount of the population is aware that alcohol is in that same class category based on the research that we have. And it's really been the first big government statement that the US has made around alcohol. And it's again creating this kind of contentious environment having to do with what are we going to say to the public moving forward. 

[00:30:10] How are we going to satisfy, I think, the scientific community and the industry, because alcohol makes a lot of money and it's an addictive substance. And so, we're caught up in that [laughs] classic political debate of what to do with this substance. But the research is quite clear. There is links between these different types of cancer. Breast, of course, is one big topic and because of the way that alcohol influences the liver and our detoxification, we can end up with these excess estrogen byproducts in the system. The other really notable one I believe is colon cancer-- increases risk of colon cancer. 

[00:30:55] And breast and colon cancer are the two most common types of cancer in the US So, do with that information what you will, but it is definitely something that I stress not only knowing about, but also telling others about because it's such a low percentage of people who know. But I also think cancer is one of those topics that's really interesting because it's something that's like, it's farther away, like, “Oh, well, I'm going to have my glass of wine. Maybe I'll get cancer, maybe I won't.” But that's where, Cynthia, I love talking about the gut and hormones and cortisol and these things that influence us on a daily basis because that I believe is more impactful when it comes to making change and saying, “Eh, maybe I'm not going to have a drink tonight.” 

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:31:45] Yeah, I mean, I think it's quite significant that, number one, we have a government paper that is talking about this because we talk so much on the podcast about how long it takes research to trickle down into real life. So that's number one. I think that the alcohol lobbying in DC is very influential. So, the fact that this again came to pass is quite significant. And then I also think for a lot of people that listen to this podcast, building awareness around risk factors for developing cancer, we know that for women, the number one killer is heart disease. Close second to that are different types of colorectal cancer, breast cancer, esophageal cancer, etc. And so, how will people understand like there are things we have control over and then there are things we have no control over and this is certainly one of them and allows people to make decisions with greater clarity, whether it's lifestyle mediated or not.

[00:32:41] Now, one thing that I've been finding fascinating is obviously GLP-1s, these peptides are very, very popular right now. I very transparently will say that at the beginning I probably wasn't as aware of the benefits as I am now. They go far and wide. And I think this is a revolutionizing medicine and lifestyle is medicine as well. What are your thoughts on using GLP-1s to stop alcohol use or to blunt the cravings of alcohol use? 

Dr. Brooke Scheller: [00:33:16] This is a great question, hot topic. And I just did a post on this because it's been coming up a lot recently. There was some research that came out earlier 2025 that was suggesting potential benefit of GLP-1 medications on alcohol cravings, especially in those who have an alcohol use disorder. And that they're seeing potential decrease in alcohol use in folks who are taking these medications. And I would say anecdotally I've heard some people have benefits, some people not even in posting that on social media. I got some folks commenting that they lost weight, but it didn't touch their alcohol cravings. [Cynthia laughs] And I think we're always in search for like a quick fix. We're always looking for that magic pill. We're always looking for the thing that's going to solve what ails us. 

[00:34:14] And what I think is really interesting as a science nerd is, of course, when I heard this, the first thing I do is go back and look through the mechanisms of action again of how the GLP-1 is influencing cravings. And there's a few suggestions that are there. And one is the effect that it has on blood sugar regulation and hunger satiety levels that potentially is influencing alcohol craving as well. And there's also suggestion that it blunts the dopamine response, which is how people become less addicted to the foods that they're eating or the alcohol that they're drinking. And I think that it's hard to say if it's having an influence one more than the other. But what I do then is go back to one of the suggestions that I make to people is alcohol has a massive influence on our blood sugar levels. 

[00:35:15] It is going to typically create hypoglycemic reactions because of the way that ethanol influences the liver and the release of those hormones, insulin, glucagon. If we're consuming a higher sugar or alcohol, we're going to see these kinds of spikes and drops in blood sugar. And one of the things that I found to be most beneficial in overcoming cravings is increasing protein, not going long without meals, especially in the afternoon. If you have like an afternoon wine craving. Well, what-- most people haven't eaten in several hours, right. Sometimes I find that it's just a hunger response that is manifesting as an urgency. I need something. It doesn't have to be alcohol, but that is the habit that we usually place into that timeframe. 

[00:36:09] And so when I think about the GLP-1s, I think about, is this something that is right for this person overall? So, would I say that everyone is a candidate for a GLP-1 to quit drinking alcohol? I would say probably not. Is there weight to be lost? Is there other health conditions that may benefit from it, like diabetes or prediabetes? One of the concerns that I have if diabetes or blood sugar dysregulation isn't present and taking one of these is that I find most people with a long alcohol use history have hypoglycemia. And one of the side effects of taking this medication if you don't have diabetes is hypoglycemia. 

[00:36:57] And so you may kind of run into more of those pitfalls with cravings, with hunger satiety influences and so I think it's an interesting thing, but I wouldn't recommend it as the first go to solution. And the last thing that I'll say there, and I'm sure you know this too, is that there are so many ways that we can influence our body's natural GLP-1 production, even by supporting the gut. And so, could we use some of those tools as a first and foremost?

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:37:29] Yeah, I think that I look at it as it's like with the side effect of maybe a reduction in cravings for alcohol or carbohydrates or other types of like hyper palatable foods. I think most listeners know that we have GLP-1 receptors, especially with the second generation like tirzepatide, those kinds of drugs. We've got GLP-1 receptors in the brain and the gut. I think for a lot of people, they may or may not realize that and tirzepatide works like a little bit differently. It's a GLP-1 and a GIP drug versus like Ozempic, semaglutide, which is that first real generation of GLP-1s that we've seen with greater frequency. 

[00:38:09] And so, in talking to colleagues of mine that are prescribing these drugs with tremendous frequency, they've said, “Oh, we've noticed as a side effect, the patients will report,” as I'm losing weight, I have less desire to drink, I'm not craving junk food as much. So, I think that in some ways it can maybe dampen those cravings. I agree with you, that should not be the primary reason for prescribing these drugs. And certainly, there are ways that we can support healthy endogenous. So, endogenous means secreted by our own bodies, endogenous GLP-1 production, whether if it's with dietary choices or otherwise. Talk to me about how women are impacted differently than men with the use of alcohol because I think in many ways, Dr. Stacy Sims always says that women are not small men. [Dr. Brooke Scheller laughs] I think in many ways there are things about our physiology that make us more susceptible to the impact of alcohol than our male counterparts. 

Dr. Brooke Scheller: [00:39:07] Yes, that's a great question and I love that sentiment that women are not small men. Well, women metabolize alcohol differently than men. And that is seen in even the recommendations, those government recommendations of men being able to potentially tolerate up to two drinks per day versus women, just one drink or less per day. And that is because not only the enzymes that we have to break down and metabolize alcohol at different levels. But as you speak about so frequently, Cynthia, hormones in women are much more complicated than in men. And that's not to say that male hormones aren't affected by alcohol, because they are. We do see that testosterone can decline. Alcohol does upregulate that aromatase pathway. So, we can see the conversion of testosterone into estrogen. That is part of the influence that we see in that “beer belly,” right? that is-- [crosstalk] 

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:40:10] Aromatization of testosterone to estrogen will give you some female physical attributes or female like attributes for listeners. Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt. 

Dr. Brooke Scheller: [00:40:21] No, no, no. no. Perfect addition. And so, hormones in men, yes, will be impacted. But women, of course, have much more complexity to their hormonal systems across the lifecycle. So, whether you are still menstruating, you're experiencing the normal fluctuation, ovulation, menstruation cycle, moving into perimenopause and having more rapid fluctuations and into menopause, all of these different cycles are going to be influenced by alcohol. Remember that alcohol's main site of metabolism is in the liver, the same place where most of our metabolism of hormones is. And so, if you're someone who experiences a lot of hormonal fluctuation, a lot of hormonal symptoms, alcohol may be playing a role in that. It can be worsening menopausal symptoms if you're heading there and experiencing a lot of the hot flashes, sleep disorder disruptions, etc.

[00:41:24] I also like to point out that there was a study in 2021 on the influence of alcohol and fertility and fecundability. So, essentially the rate of conception. So, we see that not only does alcohol influence during ovulation, the ovulation portion of the cycle, but any alcohol intake across the entire cycle can have an influence on the ability to conceive. And that is eye opening to some because most of us hear that until you're pregnant, you don't have to stop drinking. But I know that fertility is a huge topic, something that a lot of women in my generation are struggling with. And so, it's really important to look at alcohol and how alcohol might be playing a role in that too.

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:42:13] I think this is vital information because listeners run the gamut from women in their 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s and beyond. And so, I think that if we're looking at escalating rates of infertility, which is a huge problem right now. It's not just men. It's also women that can be impacted. And so, I think it's very helpful to know that if you are trying to conceive, I think that or even getting yourself into the mindset of this, my partner and I have decided now is the time to start trying to conceive that limiting toxins in your life is going to be significant. And certainly, alcohol is right up there.

[00:42:55] Now, when I think about alcohol and I think about the role of toxins when you're working with women in particular. So, let's just use women as the example. Are you encouraging them to be conscientious about other forms of toxins they may be exposed to, like, environmental in their food and their personal care products? Because I feel like in many instances, I didn't give this a thought until I hit perimenopause. And all of a sudden, I was like, “Oh, my toxin bucket has been getting filled all these years.” Now I'm in my 40s, and I'm realizing it's probably a problem. 

Dr. Brooke Scheller: [00:43:32] Yeah, well, I would say there's a few areas I want touch on with this. And one, something that I found interesting, even from that Surgeon General's warning is they talked about-- And this wasn't something I had really thought much about before, but when we consume alcohol, it increases our uptake of other carcinogens or other toxins. So, essentially, like if you smoke cigarettes, which we all know is bad for us, but if you smoke cigarettes and you drink alcohol, it makes the effect of the cigarettes worse. So, if you are drinking alcohol and you are taking in a lot of other toxins or you are exposed to a lot of other toxins that may potentially worsen things. But from a purely toxin standpoint, I would say that one of the most overlooked toxins in the wellness space is alcohol.

[00:44:28] And I was doing the same thing, clean shampoos and conditioners, switched all my beauty products, my deodorant, household products, I mean, you name it, and I'm spending 20% extra on it so that it's clean and then going and drinking alcohol and not really thinking about those two pieces together. So, I think for me, one of the things I like to point out is if we're filtering our water, we're getting clean beauty products, we're making all of these strides with less toxins, let's remember, alcohol falls into that bucket that toxin bucket.

[00:45:07] And yes, it's really important to look at things across the board of, yeah, the personal products, the deodorants, all of these other pieces, because someone who does have an alcohol use history, which is the majority of my clients that I work with, they are going to be more susceptible to these other toxins because they have had potentially long-term difficulties with detoxification. And so, they potentially have a lot of buildup of toxins in their system. And I'm a big proponent of getting digestion, detoxification, liver and all of that back in working order so that we can process things through more quickly, more clearly. The other thing that I'll note is I work with several folks who had mold exposure, environmental toxin exposure and things like that, and really did not think about the impact of alcohol on that process. 

[00:46:07] And one thing that I'll share is that there's such a big community around mold exposure and toxin exposure, and especially these extreme, maybe more extreme toxin exposures like mold, that alcohol needs to be a consideration in those healing processes. Because so many people, I get it's a coping tool. And when you're having a tough time, alcohol may be a way to get through it. But if you're drinking alcohol and being exposed to these toxins, it's going to be really, really hard to get better and to feel better if alcohol is still a significant part of your lifestyle. 

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:46:49] I love that you brought up mold because mold and mycotoxins, about 25% of us are more sensitive to mold and mycotoxins. And what I find is, women, as they're navigating perimenopause into menopause, in many instances they are dealing with histamine issues. All of a sudden, they start getting rashes and hives and things like that. They can get magnified by exposure to fermented, healthy things, fermented foods that include alcohol as an example. So, whether or not people like are making those connections, I think that's quite significant. Now in terms of detoxification, so we know that our body, every day we sweat, we poop, we pee, we breathe. Hopefully, there's lots of ways that our bodies aim to detoxify on a daily basis. 

[00:47:36] But when you're working with women that are specifically looking to become sober curious or working on their alcohol use, what are the very simple ways that they can help support detoxification in their bodies if they're perhaps new to this concept, what are things that they can do to help support their body in a very benign, low-level way?

Dr. Brooke Scheller: [00:47:59] Yeah, great question, Cynthia. So, I'm a big proponent of course, using foods that are going to upregulate detoxification. Cruciferous vegetables like broccoli and cauliflower, things like beets. I'm a huge fan of getting more beets in. A lot of the recipes in my book have beets and that's always like a contentious vegetable for people because you either learn-- [crosstalk]

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:48:23] Herbaceous [laughs].

Dr. Brooke Scheller: [00:48:24] Yeah, there's some fun ways I have in the book to explore it. So don't write them off just yet. And some of those work and some of those don't. I'm finding more and more the women that I work with experience a lot of digestive issues potentially as the result of long-term alcohol use. And so, I have been lately a big proponent of even working on taking a digestive enzyme because I'm seeing so many people having low digestive enzyme levels that's causing nutrient deficiencies, it's causing GI issues. And we need a lot of these nutrients for detoxification. Amino acids, for example. So, many people struggling with breaking down protein and getting enough of those amino acids in.

[00:49:11] So, I'm a big proponent of, a lot of the kind of standard things that we talk about in the space in terms of increasing protein. As I mentioned, having more consistent protein throughout the day, that afternoon snack being really critical. If you're someone who experiences afternoon alcohol cravings, I have clients that say that the protein afternoon snack cured their cravings. And I like to use supplements too to help support that.

[00:49:42] And I use a lot of amino acids like L-theanine and L-glutamine to not only help with alcohol cravings, but to help with some of the anxiety-driven craving that arises for many of us. So, there's so much that we can do through simple tweaks to food, getting again on that more consistent schedule, increasing some of these detoxifying veggies, and then again focusing on digestion and ensuring that is in good working order because that's going to support our brain, it's going to support our mood and so much more too.

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:50:16] Well, always an invaluable conversation with you, Brooke. Please let listeners know how to connect with you on social media, how to get a copy of your book, which is right behind you, How to Eat to Change How You Drink or connect with you outside of the podcast to work with you directly. 

Dr. Brooke Scheller: [00:50:30] Yes, thank you so much, Cynthia for having me. I'm on social media @drbrookescheller on Instagram mostly, recently launched a Substack. So happy to be over there and posting a lot of blogs and short form content which has been great. Also, if you want to learn more about me or my programs, you can find me at functionalsobriety.com and my book, as Cynthia mentioned, How to Eat to Change How You Drink is available on Amazon wherever books are sold, audiobook, paperback, however you like it.

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:51:02] Awesome. Thank you again for your time. 

Dr. Brooke Scheller: [00:51:05] Thank you Cynthia. 

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