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Ep. 451 Secrets of Adulthood: Truths for Major Life Transitions with Gretchen Rubin

  • Team Cynthia
  • Mar 26
  • 42 min read

I am delighted to connect with Gretchen Rubin today. She is one of the most insightful and influential observers of happiness and human nature today, with a remarkable gift for clearly conveying complex ideas from science, literature, and her life experiences engagingly, with a lighthearted touch. Gretchen has written many bestselling books, including her latest, Secrets of Adulthood. 


In our conversation today, we explore the open-door metaphor and the concept of drift in Secrets of Adulthood, and Gretchen explains how the proverbs she used in it can help us shape our most significant life choices. 


You will love this invaluable conversation with Gretchen Rubin. She is one of my favorite podcast hosts and authors, with a remarkable talent for conveying information and emotion beautifully and thoughtfully.


IN THIS EPISODE YOU WILL LEARN:

  • Gretchen shares her open door metaphor and explains why she likes to use the term open door instead of empty nest

  • How the concept of drift has tied into Gretchen’s career

  • Gretchen describes her writing process

  • How her legal training helped her as a writer

  • How writing Secrets of Adulthood helped Gretchen clarify her thinking and understand the paradoxes in human nature

  • Why procrastination can be good or bad and how delaying decisions may lead to worse outcomes

  • Why regret is often unavoidable when making tough decisions

  • Gretchen highlights the value of embracing risk

  • Some different ways to approach desire

  • The difference between moderation and abstinence

 

“Perfectionism is driven not by high standards but by anxiety.”


-Gretchen Rubin

 

Connect with Cynthia Thurlow  


Connect with Gretchen Rubin


Transcript:


Cynthia Thurlow: [00:00:02] Welcome to Everyday Wellness Podcast. I'm your host, nurse practitioner, Cynthia Thurlow. This podcast is designed to educate, empower and inspire you to achieve your health and wellness goals. My goal and intent is to provide you with the best content and conversations from leaders in the health and wellness industry each week and impact over a million lives. 


[00:00:29] Today, I had the honor of connecting with Gretchen Rubin. She is one of today's most influential and thought-provoking observers of happiness in human nature. She's known for her ability to convey complex ideas, from science to literature to stories from her own life with levity and clarity. She's the author of multiple best-selling books and most recently the book Secrets Of Adulthood. 


[00:00:51] Today, we spoke about the open-door metaphor, the concept of drift, Secrets Of Adulthood, including proverbs on choosing the bigger life, tough decisions, desire, and more. I know you will find this to be an invaluable conversation. Gretchen is one of my favorite podcasts to listen to as well as author. She has a beautiful ability to convey information and emotion in a way that is incredibly beautiful and thoughtful. 


[00:01:22] When I was reflecting on our discussion today, there's something that you mentioned, the open-door metaphor, which so connected with me and was such a beautiful way to honor the transitional period that you and your husband are in with your daughters leaving home. 


Gretchen Rubin: [00:01:37] Mm-hmm. 


Cynthia Thurlow: [00:01:38] And I really love to start the conversation there today because it allowed me to think about this bittersweet time period in our lives when we're launching our children and to think about it not from a place of scarcity, but to look at it from a place of abundance. And you do such a beautiful job with this metaphor. I'd love to introduce this concept. If my listeners are perhaps unfamiliar with it. I'd love to start the conversation there today. 


Gretchen Rubin: [00:02:03] Right, yeah. No, so you're exactly right. I have two daughters and the younger one left for college this year and so my husband and I entered that period that is commonly called the empty nest. But I know that I am not alone and not loving that term. People talk about bird launchers, people talk about free bird, like everybody was casting around because emptiness just sounds bereft and hollowed out and abandoned. And these are not good metaphors to invoke. So, I really thought hard about, “Well, what would the better metaphor be?” and it took me a long time, but what I landed on was “Open door” because it really captures this quality which is a positive, which is there are people leaving and there are people returning and my daughters are going out in the world, but they also come back. My husband and I now have more freedom to walk out the door because we're not constantly needing to get home to be-- It's a school night and we want to be home or we don't want to be gone for too long for too many nights on work travel, because we want to get home. We have a lot more freedom and flexibility. 


[00:03:11] So, it had this air of hospitality and adventure and possibility. And a door, it is a threshold by definition. And I felt like I'm on the threshold of a new stage of life. And so, I thought that really captured the atmosphere that I wanted to create in my own mind. So, it's great to hear that it struck a chord with you. I've been very gratified to hear that a lot of people feel like that's a more positive way of framing this. This is huge transition in our lives. 


Cynthia Thurlow: [00:03:40] It really is. And it's interesting. We sent our oldest off to college in August, and so, knowing from the moment that I had both of my boys that at some point, our whole preparation was to create and manifest and support these nurturing young men into becoming strong, independent young men. And so, for me, I was trying so hard to find a way to describe how this kind of-- The constellation of feelings, you're so happy, he's exactly where he wants to be, he's thriving. And then this tremendous loss of this person that I've been with for almost 20 years. And so, when I found your blog post on this, I kept sharing it with friends of mine, many of whom were becoming empty nesters, maybe friends who had one child or it was their last child leaving. 


Gretchen Rubin: [00:04:28] Mm-hmm. 


Cynthia Thurlow: [00:04:29] And I know it brought so many of us tremendous comfort knowing that finding that reframe and looking at it from a glass half full perspective allows us to not feel like we're in this place of scarcity, which it's easy to do as a parent.


Gretchen Rubin: [00:04:43] Yes 


Cynthia Thurlow: [00:04:44] You've identified your role as a parent, even if you work outside the home or you work inside the home. So much of our identity while we are raising children is around being a parent. And so now we're in a position, like you mentioned, you and your husband can travel. I understand you now have a dog. You have a couple dogs. 


Gretchen Rubin: [00:04:59] We have one dog, but we're getting a new dog in a couple weeks. Yeah, right. And I'm like, “Oh, wow,” I forgot they're a lot of-- A puppy is a lot of work. Yeah. 


Cynthia Thurlow: [00:05:09] Yes. We have three dogs, and we decided with two senior dogs that getting a puppy was a good idea. I jokingly talk about the puppy just reminds us that-- When you get your dog to a point where they're trained and they're relaxed and they're calm and he's still not at that stage. He's well trained, but he's not calm by any stretch of the imagination just reminds us the humbling nature of what animals can teach us. 


Gretchen Rubin: [00:05:32] Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 


Cynthia Thurlow: [00:05:34] So, have you found this open-door metaphor you mentioned that it has resonated with so many of your followers and your listeners, and your use of language is so beautiful, it doesn't matter which book of yours that I read? Well, as someone who really writes more technically, because I'm a clinician, I really value and respect your use of language. And as I was preparing for this, trying to think of this conversation could go in many different directions. You also have talked about in your work the concept of drift. And this really resonated with me because much like yourself, you were trained in another area and then pivoted. And I think one of the things that I found so beautiful was that you said, “I would almost rather fail as a writer than continue as an attorney.” 


[00:06:21] And I think for a lot of women, again, we go back to this shared experience. Many women maybe went to college with the intention of having X occupation or X training, and then they pivot at some point in their lives. Can you talk about the decision making that was behind going from law school to focusing on writing? Because you realized this is what you're really most passionate about over becoming a practicing attorney. 


Gretchen Rubin: [00:06:47] Mm-hmm. It happened to me unexpectedly. So, I went to law school for all the wrong reasons. I didn't know what else to do with myself. I was good at research and writing. I was like, “It's a great preparation. It's a great education. It'll keep my options open. I can change my mind later.” But then, I just was able to do all the things that people do in law school. So, I end up, I'm clerking on the Supreme Court. I'm a clerk for Justice Sandra Day O'Connor. And one of the things that happens to me in my life is that I will often get really, really interested in a subject and do a ton of research. This has happened to me since I was, like, 8 years old. 


[00:07:23] I also have this curious quirk where I will ask myself a rhetorical question and then just ponder the answer. So, on this day, I was out. I was walking around Capitol Hill. I looked up at the Capitol dome, and I thought, what is really interesting to me, that's interesting to just about everybody in the world. I just asked myself that rhetorical question, and I thought, “Well, power, money, fame, sex.” And then it was like, power, money, fame, sex to me, it seemed like this one giant subject. And I immediately became preoccupied with wanting to just research and know everything about it. And part of my process, and again, I've done this since I was very young, is I'll read a lot and I'll take a lot of notes. 


[00:08:02] So, I was reading all this stuff. I was taking all these notes, and it was just getting bigger and bigger and bigger, like, much more intense than any time I'd ever gone through this before. I was working full time as a clerk. And at some point, it occurred to me, well, this is the thing a person would do if they were going to write a book. And then I thought, well, maybe I could write a book. So, I went to the bookstore and got a book called something like How to Write and Sell Your Nonfiction Book Proposal. And I just followed the directions, which makes it sound [Cynthia laughs] much easier than it really was, but that's basically what happened. 


[00:08:33] And looking back on it, I think that one of the things that made it easier for me than it is often for people making this transition is I think often we know we want to leave, but we don't know where we want to go. Or we know where we want to go vaguely, but we don't know where we want to go specifically. And I was very fortunate because just the way it happened, not only did I want to write a book, I wanted to write this book. And not only did I want to write this book, I had already done a huge amount of research in order to write that book. And so, it wasn't even that I wanted to become a writer. It's like, “I have a book that I am writing. I want to get-- I want to become a-- I would like to see if I can make it as a professional writer.” 


[00:09:13] And you're absolutely right. There came a time where I had to decide what my husband and I were moving back from Washington, D.C., to New York City, and I had to think, “Well, should I try to get a law job?” And then I thought, “Well, I would rather fail as a writer than succeed as a lawyer at this point, so I should really-- This is my time to really give it a shot. I should really try to make it as a writer, and then if I fail, then I'll figure out what to do next.” But this is really-- Like, in my life, this is probably the opportunity where I'm in between things and I have this idea that I really, really want to write, so, here's my time to give it a shot. 


Cynthia Thurlow: [00:09:50] And I'm curious, because you've written several books, what is your process, like does it take you several years to write the book? Are you a fast writer? Are you a writer that's more observational and you just take notes as you go? I'm curious as someone who has now written two books, and I do not find writing to be easy. I think that for me personally, it is not something that just comes intuitively. I'm curious what your process is like. 


Gretchen Rubin: [00:10:13] Hmm. Well, it's hard to say exactly how long because I will often start a book very far back. Like, often a book will come-- Like my book about habit formation grew out of my writing about happiness for the happiness project and Happier at Home. So, I already had done a lot of thinking and working on habits, and then so they blend together and often I'll have a big idea that I just start taking notes on just because it's interesting to me. And it might be years before it actually turns into a book. So, it's hard to estimate how long that is. And my process is very much the same. I will read a tremendous amount on a subject and start taking notes on anything that seems interesting to me. 


[00:10:56] So, there's a lot of stuff where it doesn't really go anywhere. It's just something that's interesting to me, but it ends up being red herring or something that ends up not paying off, but I just have all these notes. And then I'll start talking to people and taking notes and just trying to get any information-- Reading novels on a subject. Like, I'm trying to read a lot of novels that talk about the empty nest. Strangely, there aren't that many novels talk about empty nest, I was really surprised by that. 


[00:11:20] Anyway, so then I will start having a giant document that's full of notes. And these are not organized. They're just like anything that catches my eye, anything that catches my attention. Then at a certain point I will start to think like, “Wow, I have a take. I have an argument. I'm starting to see a structure.” And then that having a structure I think is the most important part. And so, like, I have a little book called Secrets Of Adulthood, that's my Secrets Of Adulthood. But then my next big book is going to be about this empty nest, open door period. And so, I had to think like, “Well, how am I even going to approach it? How would I structure that? How do I talk about that?” And so, then I have to find the structure, and then once I have the structure, I start plugging in all the notes into where they belong, and then I start knitting it together. So, I have this process where I'm always starting with a lot of material. And so, I don't really have that panic of the blank page that a lot of writers have because I always have a ton of notes. And then I'm starting to be like, “Well, what do I think? And what am I arguing? And how does this fit in? And what about this exception? How do I account for that?” So, I write my way into whatever my conclusions are. 


Cynthia Thurlow: [00:12:33] Do you feel like your background going to law school and clerking, do you feel like some of the traits of being a good attorney have translated into being an excellent, very thorough researcher/technical writer? Because I would imagine that when you're thinking about making a basis for an argument for a case, it could be approached very similarly to the case that you're making within a book in a beautiful way. Again, you are such a beautiful writer-


Gretchen Rubin: [00:13:01] Thank you.


Cynthia Thurlow: [00:13:03] -that I really admire that, but I'm curious if you feel like that interface has really been beneficial as a writer. 


Gretchen Rubin: [00:13:08] I think it was both beneficial and then also harmful. [Cynthia laughs] So, the beneficial is exactly what you say it. Writing-- I mean, being trained as a lawyer really teaches you, lay the groundwork, establish your points. You can't jump ahead. You have to always account for the opposite. And I think it's very easy sometimes people will make an argument, but then they don't stop to think, like, “But what about the counter argument? What about the exception? What about the people who disagree?” And this was something that came up a lot with my book about-- With Better Than Before, my book about habits, people would say, “Well, you should start small. Small incremental change is better. And you'll rack up your accomplishments, so you don't want to be-- Don't bite off more than you could chew. Start small, start small, start small.” But then I'm like, “Okay, hang on,” because what about these people wandering around who lose interest if they start small? They want to go big or go home. They're not interested in modest, incremental change. They want to do something bold. You can't just say, like, “Those people don't exist.” There they are. You know what I mean? 


[00:14:09] And so, I think sometimes people don't question or they don't make the opposite argument. And if law teaches us anything, it's to make the opposing argument and to think about, “Well, what are the counterarguments to what you would say.” However, well, I'm very pleased to hear that you like my writing because I had to really unlearn a lot of legal writing. I remembered reading some case and being like, “Oh, my goodness, I will never write like this again if I can possibly help it.” Because you have to have every possible exception encountered, and you have so much jargon and you have so much technical language, and it is so hard to understand even what people are saying. Like, it just--


[00:14:44] I remember having times where I would think of my mind like a team of horses, and I had to be driving my horses into a narrow tunnel and being like, “Come on, come on, come on. Stay on target, stay on track,” because it was just so hard to focus my mind on something that was so complex and boring, which is probably why I left love. I had friends and fellow clerks who found that to be a very intellectually challenging and exciting endeavor. And so, part of it is I'm always trying to say, “How can I communicate more clearly? How can I eliminate unnecessary language? Do I have an adjective that is implied by my verb? Is there a prepositional phrase where I could have a stronger verb?” I'm always trying to simplify and make it so clear because I think I just had to deal with so much obscure technical writing for so long that it just made me just delight in the opportunity to try to be as succinct and as clear as I could be. 


Cynthia Thurlow: [00:15:45] Well, and I greatly admire that, because anytime I get a contract and I have an attorney that I work with, I just hand it off to her.


Gretchen Rubin: [00:15:50] [crosstalk] Yeah. 


Cynthia Thurlow: [00:15:52] I'm like, you figure it all out because you will see the. 


Gretchen Rubin: [00:15:55] Yes. 


Cynthia Thurlow: [00:15:57] Anything that's a potential minefield that I don't want to involve myself within, but that you're correct that having to be laborious about every single word and making sure it can only be interpreted one way is definitely a different way of thinking. And this is a perfect segue into your newest work, which I enjoyed reading Secrets Of Adulthood. And, for me, you talk about the concept of conciseness or being concise in your statement, not overthinking language, being very focused on clarity of thinking. Was that the initial impetus for the book or was this really an homage to your daughters? Because I kept thinking from the lens again, as a parent launching children into college age years and young adulthood. The concepts that are focused around in the book are things that are high level takeaways for anyone, but especially for young adults that are navigating this newfound freedom and opportunity in the world. 


Gretchen Rubin: [00:16:54] There were a lot of things coming together. Partly it was like gathering these Secrets Of Adulthood so that I could convey them to my daughters and try to save them some of the challenges and heartache that I faced. Partly just to remind myself, because I don't know about you, but I feel like I learned the same lesson over and over and over in life, and so it's like, “Okay, just remember, a quest is more fun than a jaunt.” It's more fun to go out and be looking for something or searching for something than to just be wandering around. 


[00:17:24] And then as I was trying to think about, “Well, what are these lessons that I've learned?” I really did set myself the creative challenge of trying to convey them in a very succinct way, because they're just stronger in our mind when they're expressed in a very cogent way. I think they land harder because they're shorter and easier to understand. And sometimes, often I would use something like paradox, because paradox is something that, again, like, it captures our attention and gets us thinking. So, something like accept yourself and also expect more from yourself. It's like you have to think like, “Oh, well, what does that mean? Or how can both things be true?” Well, often both things can be true. 


[00:18:02] One of my Secrets Of Adulthood is the opposite of a profound truth is also true. And so, the book was very satisfying because it allowed me to do several things all at once. Well, a lot of things came together in this book. Yes, I wanted to spare my daughter some of the life lessons that I learned the hard way. And I also wanted to remind myself of lessons that I had learned the hard way, because I don't know about you, but I keep learning the same lessons over and over. So, I wanted to remind myself of everything that I had learned. And I did want to set myself this creative challenge of expressing myself in aphorisms, which are very short, concise statements that try to capture some big insight into human nature. Because by being short, first of all, it's more memorable because it's easier to remember something that's short, and especially if it's phrased in a memorable way, say, through using paradox or something. And I think, for me, the way I understand things is by writing and by really having to express myself very concisely, it really forced me to get clear in my thinking. So, there were a lot of things coming together for Secrets Of Adulthood.


Cynthia Thurlow: [00:19:10] Well, and it's interesting to me because there are people out there who may write a paragraph on a topic, and it's not clear what the point is. So, language can be used in many different ways. And so, I was actually saying to my husband as I was reading your book, I was like, “I think this is an interesting exercise for all of us to endeavor. Can you communicate in short, succinct phrases or sentences in a way that conveys direct meaning?” As an example, one of the ‘choose the bigger life’ was the context, but “Easy children raise good parents.” And I said to my husband, “What does that mean to you?” 


Gretchen Rubin: [00:19:46] Mm-hmm. 


Cynthia Thurlow: [00:19:48] And as we reflected on, we have one child who is just easygoing, that is his personality. And we have another child who's very different. And we've learned so much from both of them. I always say our children are our greatest teachers. But these proverbs or aphorisms that you mentioned, or true rules, however you want to go about stating it, to me, it is challenging to communicate in a way. I can imagine this, maybe not for you with your expression and language, but to really think about a way to communicate effectively, persuasively, concisely, is for most of us, probably more challenging than we probably realize. 


Gretchen Rubin: [00:20:24] Mm-hmm. No, I think it's true, but I think it is very satisfying to try to do that. And in the back of Secrets of Adulthood, there's places where you can write your own secrets of adulthood. Because I think a lot of us do feel like we've gained at least a few of these, and it's very satisfying to memorialize them. But it is funny where sometimes it would take me such a long time just even to recognize something-- Like, one of them is, “Love is unconditional and love is demanding,” because love accepts you just as you are and love expects the best from you. 


[00:20:58] And again, it's this idea of paradox, like both things are true. But a lot of times, when at least when I'm thinking, I fall into one camp and then I'm like puzzled by things that go contrary to it. Like “Accept yourself and also expect more from yourself.” Because you can be talking about self-compassion and yes, it's really important, I want to accept myself. But then somebody says, “But what about getting yourself out of your comfort zone?” And then you're like, “Oh yeah, wait, that's important too, but then how does that fit in with accepting myself?” And you're like, “Well, we need to accept ourselves and expect more from ourselves.” And so, a lot of times, trying to like really express something succinctly really did force me to get clear in my thinking, so that was a big benefit.


Cynthia Thurlow: [00:21:37] I bet. And for me, when I was going through these little vignettes, you have things on perspective and responsibility and thirst for knowledge and something that I believe that-- I tell my children we will be lifelong learners. How important it is to be learning, constantly challenging yourself- 


Gretchen Rubin: [00:21:54] Mm-hmm. 


Cynthia Thurlow: [00:21:56] -under the thirst for knowledge. The more we know, the more we notice. I think that really speaks to what you're even saying is now that you have this open door, it's giving you an opportunity to ponder some of these deeper questions and think about how they impact our life. For me, I feel like as a parent for so many years, when it's so hands on and they're so dependent on you, and you bathe them and you feed them and you diaper them, you do all these things, there's a lot in the world that I stopped noticing. Not because I didn't want to, I just didn't have the bandwidth. And I feel like in many ways now that my children are more independent. I notice more things. I notice more in nature. I notice more when I'm going through a museum. I notice more when I'm actually reading because I'm reading substantively instead of superficially. And so that in particular for me, really resonated. And I was like, “Wow, that's so true.” And I think for many people, that is the human experience that we have moments in our lives where it ebbs and flows, when we're more consumed with being responsible for a child as an example, or maybe someone is dealing with aging parents and they just can't see beyond the day to day having that gift of being able to see things from a more substantial level. 


Gretchen Rubin: [00:23:05] That's such an interesting observation. I think you're exactly right. There's something about children where you just you sort of-- Well, part of it is they are clamoring for your attention, but also you have that thing in your brain that's constantly searching “Where are they? When are they coming home? Do I need to make a pediatrician's appointment?” There is a lot of bandwidth that is occupied with that and then you can notice more. 


[00:23:33] It's also funny though, because there's things that you notice through your children that you don't otherwise notice. This is the thing where, like when you have a little kid, you notice all the children's music or all the Pixar movies and then you age out of it and you're noticing, so in a way it's very exciting because all of a sudden things become interesting to you that you had never noticed before. But then you're right, there are other things that are fading out and there are other things that are like far in the distance to you because you're very focused on what's happening, like right in your own immediate circumstance. 


[00:24:01] And that's what I think is so interesting about this period is it's, it's good things and bad things, like you're gaining and losing. I keep saying, “I feel grief and relief.” Both things are true. And that I think that the challenge is to acknowledge where we feel the negative emotions, but then also to look for the like where is the positive? I mean, one of the things I realized about myself is that to this day, if I am in my own home, I don't shut the bathroom door when I'm in the bathroom. [Cynthia laughs]


[00:24:32] My daughters are out of the house, but I just don't shut the door. And finally, I was like, “Why am I doing that?” And I'm like, because for so long I had to like listen for some scream or crash or somebody had to come running in and so these old habits die hard. But I don't have to be listening for that screaming. Well, if I get a puppy, I'm going to have to be attentive [Cynthia laughs] to a whole different kind of problem, but then there is this gain, or like you can sit down and watch an R-rated movie without having to keep an ear cocked or any little feet coming in or whatever. And so, there is gain. There are things that you can do in freedoms that we have. So, I think it is to be paying attention to all these things. And I think that's exactly right. Like you have a focus and a concentration and a openness. Again, back to open door that perhaps is lost when you have that like very deep focus on your own household. 


Cynthia Thurlow: [00:25:24] Yeah. That literal and proverbial open door. And I remarked the same thing. I was staying in a hotel and my husband said, “Do you realize you never close the bathroom door?” And I said, “I think it is--" 


Gretchen Rubin: [00:25:34] Is that you too? I thought that was some weird quirk. Do you have that as well? 


Cynthia Thurlow: [00:25:38] I have the same thing. And I said, but I had so many years and I had boys who were just-- We had so many ER visits and there were always crazy things going on. And so, I always had the door open so I could listen if there was a problem- 


Gretchen Rubin: [00:25:49] Yes, yes. 


Cynthia Thurlow: [00:25:51] -but that has still continued and persisted. And what I find interesting, I said to my husband, I noticed that if I'm-- Obviously if people are in my house, it's different- 


Gretchen Rubin: [00:25:58] No. Yes. 


Cynthia Thurlow: [00:25:59] -but traveling by myself or with my husband, not a big deal. I said, “I almost feel claustrophobic with the door closed,” which is that realization that I never felt this way before. But now that I'm at this stage, if that door is closed, I almost feel a little bit claustrophobic because I've been so consumed with being conscientious about what is going on around me as I'm emptying my bladder, which is reassuring to know I'm not the only woman. 


Gretchen Rubin: [00:26:24] I feel reassured as well. I thought that that was just some strange thing because I was like, “Why is it that I never just shut the door?” 


Cynthia Thurlow: [00:26:31] Yeah. No, I think it's that motherly kind of radar keeping attuned to what's going on around us. Let's talk about procrastination because as you mentioned, it's both good-- It can be both good and bad. It's not pejoratively one direction or another. Perfectionism is driven not by high standards, but by anxiety. And I was like, “Wow.” When I sat back and thought about that. When you think about perfectionism, and I would imagine as a very high functioning, high achieving woman, mom, wife, when you were thinking about this proverb in particular to perfectionism, which I think like many women in particular really struggle with at least at some point in their lifetime, talk to us about how it can be driven by anxiety. 


Gretchen Rubin: [00:27:14] Well, the way that I noticed this is in the absence because I actually don't have a problem with perfectionism. And that was interesting to me because I do fancy myself as someone who has very high standards. And I would think nothing of like working on a draft over and over and over and over until it literally is as perfect as I can make it. And so, I'm like, “Well, it's not that I have high standards, so why is it that other people talk so much about perfectionism?” And it is something that I-- Just as you say, from my-- Like, just describing myself to myself, I would think that'd be something that I would really battle with. 


[00:27:47] And I realize it's because I'm not a particularly anxious person. I've learned, I mean, I have my regular anxiety, but I'm not the way other people are. And when I started talking to them, what I realized is that often when people felt that anxiety about what they were doing, they felt like, “Well, maybe if I lower my standards, my anxiety will go away because I won't feel like I'm not reaching the level that I need to attain.” But then that didn't work. So, it was very odd to me because I'm like, “Well, even if you lower your standards, you still feel the same way as you felt before.” Then I realized what it is. It's really about that anxiety. And that's very different because if you know that what is bothering you is that you're feeling anxious, then you're not going to focus on well, what is your standard? Because then I would-- People would say to me, “But I don't want to lower my standards. I'm a person. I want to have the highest standards.” And I was like, “Yeah, you can have the highest standards you want. Let's talk about the anxiety. Why are you feeling so anxious? That's going to be a much more useful place to focus your attention if you're feeling the discomfort of perfectionism.” 


Cynthia Thurlow: [00:28:47] Well, and it's interesting because I think back to 15 years ago, before I was in this middle age stage, and just the social community that I was in, there was a lot of exterior pressure, kind of superficial exterior pressure. And I feel like every time someone came to my house, I would stress about so many little details. And I came to find out that it was really driven, like you said, by some degree of underlying anxiety. And when I finally freed myself of the response, my house doesn't need to be perfect. My house doesn't have to be perfectly clean. I don't have to have the most perfect paint and the most perfect artwork. All these silly things that I think when we're younger, maybe we preoccupy ourselves around. And then I think as we get older, we realize, like, “We really don't care, people.” 


Gretchen Rubin: [00:29:28] Mm-hmm. 


Cynthia Thurlow: [00:29:29] We care, but we don't care on a more deep level. The people closest to us, obviously, we want them to feel like they're welcome and they feel comfortable, but these superficialities that I feel like when we're younger, maybe we get preoccupied about are really not important. I think that's how I interpreted it. The things that I thought were so important at a younger age, I realized later, are really not very important at all. 


Gretchen Rubin: [00:29:53] Well, I remember having this insight years ago when my husband and I, we're just starting out as a family. And so, my parents live in Kansas City, Missouri, and my mother loves New York City and so sometimes she would just come visit on her own. My father would be busy working or whatever, and my mother would just want to come. And the first few times, I was like, “This is great. I'll make great reservations. We'll get tickets to a show. I'll make all these plans.” But the fact is, this is not my nature. That is the thing that's very hard for me to do. I don't like errands. I don't like making reservations. I don't like making plans.


[00:30:30] And I thought, “Okay, well, I have a choice here. I can make all these plans and have a wonderful trip for my mother, and then I will never want my mother to come.” Or I can say to my mother, “Figure it out. We may just eat at home. Your on your own, because I've got all this other stuff going on, but we'll try to figure something out. And you can come whenever you want, and you can stay as long as you like.” And I thought my mother would rather just-- She's got plenty of things to do. She doesn't need me to be her social director. She would rather feel welcome and have the freedom to come and go whenever she wants instead of me stressing myself out about something just that's in my own head. And so, I had set myself this standard that then I would be unable to live up to. And that's what was making me anxious. So, it wasn't even that it was a perfectionism. It was just like, “Why are you even doing this?” It was all just something. It was just this fantasy self of the-- And of course I wanted my mother to feel welcome, but the way to make her feel welcome was to be honestly glad that she was coming instead of dreading it because I was going to have to run around doing all this work. 


Cynthia Thurlow: [00:31:36] Yeah. And I think half of it's recognizing what are we good at? What do we enjoy doing? 


Gretchen Rubin: [00:31:41] Yes 


Cynthia Thurlow: [00:31:41] And that realization is huge. I am an introvert in a family of extroverts. Well, my mother, my brother, I am the introvert. And so, for me they'll sometimes say “We don't get to see you as often.” And I'm like, “My social batteries get drained really quickly, so I have to be very judicious about how much time,” and the things that I do, and I think half the acknowledgement is just what makes you feel good and what-- As you mentioned with your mom going to all these grandiose efforts to make plans, when what your mom really wanted to do was just spend time with you, probably curled up in your house, maybe cooking a meal together and spending time with you as opposed to being rushed and bustled. New York is such an amazing, dynamic city, but I can appreciate the point that you're making that it was that togetherness that she's really looking for. 


Gretchen Rubin: [00:32:28] Mm-hmm. Yeah. 


Cynthia Thurlow: [00:32:32] The other thing about procrastination that appealed to me and also is timely because I just handed in my book manuscript. 


Gretchen Rubin: [00:32:37] Mm-hmm. Congratulations. That's a huge, that's a huge milestone. 


Cynthia Thurlow: [00:32:41] It is. It feels amazing. In fact, I think it's taken me two weeks to feel like I feel like a real human being again. [crosstalk] The concept of do you need more time or do you need to make a decision? I was like, “Oof, that's great.” That is even my editor saying, “Do you think you need more time?” Because we had some things going on in my personal life, and I said, “Nope.” In my mind, I was like, “It's going to be in on the date because I need it to be done. I know it's going to be an amazing book.” But she kept saying to me, “Do you feel like you need more time?” And I think many of us will sometimes continue giving ourselves more time, more time, more time when what we actually need to do is be decisive. And I think it's human nature sometimes we want to avoid making the decision. We just drag things out. 


Gretchen Rubin: [00:33:30] Exactly. And we do that or we also justify not making a decision by saying, “Well, I need more Information or I need to talk to more people.” I realize that I do this in my own life where-- because it is-- There's decision fatigue. This is a real thing. It is tiring to make decisions. It takes a lot out of us. Even something as simple as, like, “What time do I need to leave for the airport?” And I realized that often I would say to myself, “Oh, I need to consult with this person. I need to talk to my husband or I need to talk to my sister,” who's the co-host of Happier with Gretchen Rubin podcast with me or my editor, whatever, I need to talk to them before I make a decision. 


[00:34:05] But I'm realizing “You don't need to talk to them. They don't have any information that is actually going to be dispositive. You're just delaying it. And this is just an excuse. I need to just make the hard work of deciding.” Because as you say in the example that you give, sometimes we actually make it worse because as we delay and delay things often get harder, or you put yourself under more stress, or you give yourself less time on the other side, or you start losing options, like you haven't made hotel reservations because you couldn't decide where to go and so now there aren't as many availabilities and so you're paying more. You're not getting your first choice. 


[00:34:45] So sometimes you're just like, “Okay, it's hard to make a decision.” I have this with making airplane reservations. I'm like, “Whatever time I choose, it's very well going to be the wrong time. It'll end up being inconvenient or it'll be delayed and you know what? There'll be a big snowstorm that day, and I'll wish, ‘why didn't I pick a different day?’” But you have to pick a day. You have to pick a day. You got to roll the dice. You got to go. And it's like, there's no more information to be gained from waiting. It will only get harder and more expensive. But I often find myself falling into this trap of like, “Oh, I need a little bit more information that'll make it easier,” but it doesn't. 


Cynthia Thurlow: [00:35:19] No, I call it analysis paralysis like we just get stuck in this circular issue. And so, I sometimes will just-- Within business, I am very decisive, but sometimes in my personal life, I'll drag things out that I don't need to needlessly. And so now at least I recognize It. I put it on a list, and I know that you are a proponent of not having very lengthy lists, which the concept of-- There's a book called Eat the Frog. It's like, “Do the three things you want to avoid the most first thing in the morning.” That was an easy but transformational way of shifting my perspective. And I think so many of us, it is human nature that we just avoid what we don't want to deal with and that can be certainly very problematic. 


[00:36:02] Now in terms of other areas in the book. And it's such a-- Again, I go back to the use of language, the conciseness. I think it's so valuable. Let's talk about tough decisions. Kind of goes along with procrastination when you're thinking about what are the takeaways about tough decisions. And these could be big things or small things. Sometimes the smaller decisions are harder to make than the larger ones. 


Gretchen Rubin: [00:36:28] Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, which ones resonated most with you? I'm very curious to know which ones are standing out to other people, because I love them all equally, of course, [Cynthia laughs] but I'm so interested to know which ones are jumping out at people? 


Cynthia Thurlow: [00:36:40] For me, the one that stood out was “When uncertain choose the bigger life, live in an atmosphere of growth,” which is how I've lived my life, pivoting and taking roads less traveled throughout the trajectory of my lifetime, that as an individual who has sometimes not always fully understood why I decided to pivot. I was pre law as an undergrad, got into law school, didn't go, ended up in the medical field, did that for 16 years, got bored of writing prescriptions, pivoted and shifted. And so, for me, it's always been-- I think one of my guiding principles is sometimes you use the term “Choose the bigger life.” I love that reframe. But sometimes, “Stepping into the unknown” and “Sometimes through great risk, we have great reward.” And so that has been this prevailing running theme throughout my life. 


[00:37:27] And I think for a lot of other people talking to patients and clients and friends that are able to make those decisions even if it's perhaps not the popular decision to make at the time, they end up opening up opportunities they would not otherwise have had. So, I think for me there were three, but that was the one that had a little star next to it, as I was reading the book. 


Gretchen Rubin: [00:37:49] Yeah, I agree. That's a big-- “Choose the bigger life. And live in an atmosphere of growth,” are two things that I remind myself of all the time. Because often, and I think this is exactly along the lines of what you're saying. A lot of times, choosing the bigger life or the atmosphere of growth or embracing that risk, it doesn't make us feel happy in the moment. It doesn't feel good. We might feel insecure. We might feel defensive. We might feel frustrated. We might feel incompetent. Like we've been doing something that we were really, really good at and now we're doing something that we're not really good at, and we don't really know what we're doing. We feel like we're starting all the way back at the beginning. There's a lot of negative emotions that can come along with it. 


[00:38:30] But then you just have to remember like this is often the way to the bigger life and to the greater happiness, because you have that feeling of an atmosphere of growth, and you have that feeling of learning and structuring and trying something new and having a new identity for yourself. And especially if the old life is starting to feel stale or every problem feels like a problem that you've grappled with before, and you think like, “Oh, my gosh, this is Groundhog Day. It's this same problem over and over. Whereas when you're starting out, it's exciting, and you got to figure it out, and then you've got this growing feeling of mastery, but then at a certain point, you're like, “Oh, gosh, this again?” And then it's exciting to do something completely new. So, I do think that it's helpful to remember that there's so much to be gained from going through that process, because often when we're starting out, does it look like that much fun? [laughs] 


Cynthia Thurlow: [00:39:22] No. In fact, I tell people, April 1st, 2016, is when I left clinical medicine. And my husband, I'm sure, who's an engineer, thought I'd lost my mind. Maybe I was having a midlife crisis. Within a couple of years, he realized, “No, you actually had a trajectory you needed to pivot on.” But I remember, and I tell everyone, “Don't do what I did. I had no plan.” I just said, “I'm going to be able to be more helpful and impact more people if I'm not stuck in an environment where I felt like I was no longer growing intellectually.” And the practice I worked for-- To give you some perspective, I worked for a very large cardiology practice in Washington, D.C. And they were willing to give me any crazy schedule I wanted. They were so gracious and so wonderful. And I said, “I think what I need to say is I'm just no longer growing intellectually.” And that is what I'm struggling with. I love the people I worked with and I love my patients. And I now can see retrospectively that was my attempt to for this growth period. But also to acknowledge that I was meant to do something different. I can still use those skills, but in a different way. And this is the work beyond being a mom and a wife is the work that I was really meant to do. And so, I encourage everyone who's listening. It doesn't necessarily have to be that grandiose, but I do think that some of the decisions that we make, which may not at the time make 100% sense to us. And as someone that's very cerebral and very left brain, that was a very hard decision to make. It was made out of an emotional decision and also an intellectual one. But I share this as a way for people to understand that tough decisions aren't always bad things, sometimes they can lead to really wonderful things. 


Gretchen Rubin: [00:40:57] Well, and this reminds me of another secret of adulthood. And I can't quote myself exactly because I had to wordsmith it so much, now, I don't even remember exactly how it came out. But the gist of it is that sometimes we make choices where regret is inevitable, that any path we choose means foreclosing other paths. And so, there is no possibility of no regret. And this was important to me because I would sometimes get caught in a decision where I would think like, “Well, I want to make the decision that I'm not going to regret.” And I would think, like, “Well, if I just think about it hard enough and really get the pros and cons right, then I won't have regret.” 


[00:41:31] But then what I realized is that's not true, because to have an apple means not to have an orange. And to have an orange means, okay, there's no apple. And so it could be that either decision will lead to regret, because if you have a girl, you don't have a boy. You know what I mean? Or if you live in Miami, you're not going to live in New Hampshire. And both could be great experiences and something that you would really love, but we can't always do everything. And so, the idea of living to avoid regret, it's like sometimes regret is inevitable. 


[00:42:02] And so, I think also with the of risk that you're talking about, sometimes people think like, “Well, will I regret it?” But what the research shows is that when it comes to risk taking, people are more often likely to regret risks that they did not take, rather than risk that they did take. And so, there is something about embracing risk and stepping forward that we find valuable, even if it doesn't go the way we want, even if maybe it ends in failure often people will think like, “Well, I did learn and I did grow, and I'm glad I tried.” And then often it will work out or maybe it'll work out in a way that you didn't anticipate when you started, but then it led you into a completely different destiny. So, it's interesting to think about how we think about these kinds of decisions as we're muddling through them. 


Cynthia Thurlow: [00:42:49] Yeah. And I think for so many people, we're conditioned as humans to be safe. Sometimes it's easier to do the safe thing. You're good in math, so you become an engineer. I'm using this example. 


Gretchen Rubin: [00:43:03] Yeah. Yeah. 


Cynthia Thurlow: [00:43:04] Or you're very empathetic, so you become a nurse. But that doesn't per se mean that's the right decision for you, you can always change your mind. But I tell my children, because we'll talk about-- They were asking the other day recently, “Is there anything that really stands out to you that you regret?” And I said, “I don't believe in regrets.” This is just my personal affirmation. I said, “I will tell you one thing that I'm going to really encourage you to do in college that I did not do. Study abroad. I don't care if you do it for a month or semester.” But that is, if I look back on the trajectory of my life, like, one thing that if I were to think about is a regret, like having that opportunity, your parents are paying for school, you get to live in a foreign country, you get to study, and your job is just to learn. And I said, “If anything, I hope that you both will study abroad.” And they looked at me like I was crazy. And I said, “Well, that was the only thing I could really think of,” because most other things, I somehow navigated my life, not always making the popular decision, is what I'm trying to say, that I think I've done that enough where I've pivoted, taken the road less traveled, if you will, and feel like

when I look back on my 53 years on this planet, that I've made some good choices, thankfully. 


Gretchen Rubin: [00:44:09] Mm-hmm. Well, the other thing that I try to remember is you don't have to be good at something to be good at something. Dolly Parton can't read music. Paul McCartney can't read music. I think that when I was younger, I thought that if you were going to really excel at something, you had to be good at all the component parts. And what you realize with age and experience is there's a lot of people in finance who can't really do math. There's a lot of artists who can't really draw. You don't have to be good at something to be good at something. And a lot of times just having the confidence and the passion, and you just figure it out. If there's something that you can't do, you figure out a workaround, you delegate it, you hire it. You figure out a way that you could just leave that part out. 


[00:44:51] As a writer, one of my biggest helpful mantras is skip the boring parts. And what I found is like, whatever book I'm writing, there's parts of it that I find boring, and I used to be like, “Oh, this is my lawyer side.” I'd be like, “Well, I have to include this because arguably this is part of the argument.” And I'm like, “But could I just skip the boring parts?” And no one's ever written to me and said, “Hey, Gretchen, what about that boring part you left out?” That you just write around it, you just write it in a way so that it's not missing. There is no gap, so I think that you're exactly right that we can think about how to do it in a way that works for us. 


Cynthia Thurlow: [00:45:24] Yeah, I love the skip the boring parts. There is a psychologist who just posted the other day, Adam Grant, and he was saying, “I give you permission if you're reading a book.” And to me, I was like, whether it's a book, a movie, I could insert any other thing. “If you don't enjoy it, you don't have to finish it.” And so, I think that, to me, is speaking to the same thing that for those of us we've been so committed, you skip the boring part. If you're reading a book and something doesn't appeal to you or watching a movie, you can stop it, fast forward through it. We don't have to suffer for the sake of suffering. 


Gretchen Rubin: [00:45:58] Mm-hmm. On the Happier Podcast, every year we have annual challenge like walk 20 and 20, where you walk 20 minutes day in 2020 or whatever. And it's read 25 and 25. So read for 25 minutes a day in 2025. And the big thing is it's a lot more fun to read when you're reading something that you enjoy, but it is strangely hard to put down a book half-finished or unfinished. And I find myself doing this-- I want credit for it. Once I've read a certain amount, [Cynthia laughs] I’m like “I want credit for it. I want to be able to say ‘Oh, I finished it.’” So, I really have to steel myself to put a book down unfinished. But I gave myself a gold star. I put down three books unfinished in a row. I was in a bad rut of reading, and I had three meh books in a row. But now I'm reading a book that I really enjoy, and I got to it so much faster than if I forced myself to read through the three books I didn't like. 


Cynthia Thurlow: [00:46:50] Well, but I think it says a lot. It's human nature. We endeavor to suffer through it and finish it instead of putting it aside. And I think that really speaks to the fact that we're conscientious about time. I'm now much more conscientious about time than maybe I've ever been because I have the aging parents, growing up kids, and I start to realize at 53, I'm more than halfway through my lifestyle. So, it's like time is something that I'm much more conscientious about. 


[00:47:18] Now, just to round out the conversation. Something that appealed to me, obviously, again, there's themes that are running throughout the book, Desire. Now, desire can be many different things. Abstinence can be easier than moderation, which is something that I will say often in relationship to nutrition, but I think speaks to so many things in life because we're so conditioned that desire is a bad thing, no, not per se. I think again it's that paradox that you speak to. 


Gretchen Rubin: [00:47:47] Well, this is so true of me. And I'm a person who had a tremendous sweet tooth, and I found it very, very hard to manage it. And then finally I realized I could just give up sugar. And I gave up sugar. I gave up basically all carbs. The only carbs I eat are in leafy green vegetables and nuts. I wouldn't even eat a banana. And just for me, it's so much easier. This isn't true for everyone. Some people are moderators where they get panicky and rebellious if they're told they can never do something. Most of us are probably a mix of moderator and abstainer. And it depends on if it's a strong temptation or a weak temptation. 


[00:48:25] For me, I don't really care about wine, so I can be a moderator about wine because I can have half a glass of wine. I don't really care. Where another friend of mine is like, “Oh, for me it's no wine or four glasses of wine. I can't have a little bit.” But the thing is, I think we're taught. In my experience, a lot of people say, like, “Well, moderation is pleasant to the wise and follow the 80:20 rule and don't be too hard on yourself. And if you rule something out, it will overwhelm you later.” And I'm like, “Maybe not though, because for me and for a lot of people, abstinence is easier than moderation.” 


[00:49:00] And so, again, it's one of these things where it is not necessarily universally true, but I do think that it is an observation that for many people, when I've heard from many people who are like, “Well, I didn't know you could just do that.” I'm like, “Give it a try. Because if you abstain from something altogether--” My sister, she's a writer in Hollywood, and she has a writing partner, and her writing partner is an over buyer. She's one of these people who just buys every-- So much stuff. She buys gifts without a recipient. She buys multiples of things. She buys things that she thinks that she might one day need. And so, for 2025, she made a list of 25 things on her no buy list. So, these are things she wasn't going to buy in 2025. And she says it's just easier. It's like now that she's like, “I'm not buying anything that isn't an office supply, something from a drugstore that--" that it's easier than trying to just have fewer impulse purchases. Now she's making no impulse purchases and that's easier. Sometimes it's just easier to do it all or nothing. 


Cynthia Thurlow: [00:50:03] Yeah, it's interesting, those little guardrails that I think for so many of us can be helpful. And I tell patients “If you can't moderate, you eliminate.” That's a standard mantra I have.


Gretchen Rubin: [00:50:11] That's a great line. 


Cynthia Thurlow: [00:50:12] Some patients that will tell me they do fine, they can have a couple squares of dark chocolate and they don't binge. But if they have anything that has flour, it's a total given that they're going to struggle with moderation. And I'm one of those people like a gluten-free brownie that's a disaster. Piece of dark chocolate, no problem whatsoever. And so, I think- 


Gretchen Rubin: [00:50:31] Mm-hmm. Interesting. 


Cynthia Thurlow: [00:50:32]-part of it, and it's the flour, because I think that-- When you think about the combination of even like almond flour and a little bit of sugar, what that does in the bloodstream, it hits that dopamine receptor in my brain and I just want more and more and more. And this is someone that is, I would say I'm pretty disciplined about how I eat what I eat, but I hear the same things from patients, so this is a great example. I just don't even keep these things in my house because it's just so much easier. 


[00:51:02] And that bio individuality piece for someone-- You mentioned your friend, they either drink no wine or four glasses of wine. Whether it's a cake, cookie, whether it's something sweet and savory, people say chips or crackers or things like that, those I don't have a problem with. But I think for a lot of individuals it is helping to figure out like what their own human kryptonite is. 


Gretchen Rubin: [00:51:23] Mm-hmm. Yeah, my sister said that hers is French fries. That's her kryptonite. It's French fries. And once you know that you're just like, “Okay, like I can't handle French fries,” but people are really different about what that is. You're exactly right. It looks very different. For my husband, it was peanut butter. He just was realizing that he was just like dipping a spoon into a jar of peanut butter like a thousand times a day. And he was eating a lot more peanut butter than he realized. He wasn't like sitting down and making a peanut butter sandwich, but he was just snacking on peanut butter far more than was really a good idea. 


Cynthia Thurlow: [00:51:58] Yeah. And it's amazing how that awareness can help you determine if that's a good habit for you to continue. Well, I have so enjoyed this conversation. Please let listeners know how to connect with you, how to listen to your amazing podcast and purchase your new book. 


Gretchen Rubin: [00:52:13] Oh well, thank you. I know I feel like we could talk all day. We're interested in so many of the same things. Yes, all the information is at gretchenrubin.com. You can read all about me. I've got all these quizzes if you like, a big self-knowledge quiz. I'm on social media on all the places under the name Gretchen Rubin and I love to connect with readers and listeners about observations, insights, questions, resources. I love-- If you've got any resources about the emptiness/open door phase, send them my way, I'm looking for that. 


I mean then my podcast is called Happier With Gretchen Rubin and I do that with my sister as who I said is a TV showrunner and writer and it's all about how to make your life happier. And I have a newsletter every week that's free, I've got products, I got all the things. But if you go to gretchinrubin.com, you can read more about Secrets of Adulthood and order it there and just learn about anything that's of interest. I have a lot on happiness and good habits and all things related to human nature. 


Cynthia Thurlow: [00:53:12] Amazing. Thank you so much for your time. 


Gretchen Rubin: [00:53:14] Thank you. 


Cynthia Thurlow: [00:53:17] If you love this podcast episode, please leave a rating and review. Subscribe and tell a friend. 



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