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Ep. 149 Keto Flex, Feating and Fasting: Bringing the Body Back with Ben Azadi

  • Team Cynthia
  • May 15, 2021
  • 37 min read

I am excited to talk to Ben Azadi today! Ben is the author of four best-selling books, Keto Flex, The Perfect Health Booklet, The Intermittent Fasting Cheat Sheet, and The Power of Sleep. He has been the go-to source for intermittent fasting and the ketogenic diet. In 2008, Ben went through a personal health transformation of shredding 80 pounds of pure fat. Ever since he has been on a mission to help 1 billion people live a healthier lifestyle. Ben is also the host of a top 15 podcast, The Keto Kamp Podcast, and the fast-growing Keto Kamp YouTube channel with over 122,000 subscribers.


Ben is known as 'The Health Detective' because he investigates dysfunction, and he educates, not medicates, to bring the body back to normal function. He is the founder of Keto Kamp, a global brand bringing awareness to ancient healing strategies such as the keto diet and fasting. Ben’s latest book, Keto Flex: The 4 Secrets to Reduce Inflammation, Burn Fat, and Reboot Your Metabolism, was a labor of love that took him a little over two years to complete. Be sure to tune in today to find out about his latest book, and hear what he has to say about keto and fasting. 


IN THIS EPISODE YOU WILL LEARN:

  • Ben gives a general overview of his latest book, Keto Flex.

  • Ben talks about ketosis. He explains what it is, why we would want to aim for it, and why we should not get fixated on devices.

  • Ben discusses the benefits of teaching your body to burn fat as the primary fuel source.

  • It is easy to overdo certain fatty foods, like cheese or nuts.

  • Ben explains how to burn extra body fat with keto.

  • Ben shares his thought on using devices to measure ketones.

  • In his book, Ben shares fifteen bio-hacks for getting better sleep. Optimizing sleep is vital. Sleep can impact our ability to become fat-adapted and have success with intermittent fasting.

  • Ben shares two great sleep tips.

  • Ben shares some fasting strategies.

  • Taking responsibility for your health.

  • Ben discusses how he helps women feel better about themselves and what he does to stay positive.

  • Ben shares a valuable takeaway from his book, Keto Flex.


“My life changed the second I took responsibility.”

-   Ben Azadi

Connect with Cynthia Thurlow  


Connect with Ben Azadi


Transcript:

Cynthia Thurlow: Hey, Ben.


Ben Azadi: Cynthia in the house. Hi.


Cynthia Thurlow: I've been looking forward to this. It's funny, I mean-- I won't admit this to many people, but sometimes you really look forward to some people, and then I've been like-- all day long, I'm like, “I'm going to connect with Ben. This is so cool. This will be a fun interview.” Then sometimes you record the podcast guests and you're like, “Try not to watch the clock.”


Ben Azadi: [chuckles] Yeah, been there, for sure. I'm glad I'm one of the fun ones for you.


Cynthia Thurlow: [laughs] You know it was funny, I was asking on social media today that and I was telling people, I was like, “I'm recording with Ben. What are your questions?” Some of the questions were so off the wall. I was like, “I just said he's a keto expert. Don't ask him about veganism or don't ask him--” Some of the questions, I was like, “Seriously?”


[laughter] 


Ben Azadi: Yeah, that's interesting. When you open up that door of questions, you're going to get some crazy ones.


Cynthia Thurlow: Yes, absolutely. My thoughts were obviously talk about the book, but the questions we're getting-- [video freeze]


Ben Azadi: You there?


Cynthia Thurlow: Well, that was a little bit of a kerfuffle. Nothing like a 15-minute break when you weren't expecting to have one.


[laughter] 


Ben Azadi: Is it working good now?


Cynthia Thurlow: Now it's fine, but I've never had my computer go completely out, and certainly not during a podcast. Then, when it hiccupped, it needed to completely restart, which then was 10 minutes, and I'm just sitting here going, “Okay, let me grab my laptop,” and then that was taking a while because my son must have been fiddling around with it. Anyway, good to connect with you. 


Ben Azadi: That’s happened to me before. Actually, when I was interviewing Dr. Mindy, via StreamYard, and we were actually streaming into the members of my academy, my computer just shut off completely in the middle of the interview, so I had to restart and let her know, “I'll be right there.” It happens. It's all good. 


Cynthia Thurlow: Well, I think for anyone who-- you do anything in the public eye, you just recognize part of the whole process is acknowledging that sometimes you don't have full control over everything that's happening. It's like, “Okay, I can either freak out about it, or I can just go with the flow,” and thankfully you know me well, and I know you well, and I was like, “It'll all fall into place.” 


Ben Azadi: Yeah. 


Cynthia Thurlow: Anyway, I'm so excited to connect with you today. I'm loving all the attention you're getting with your new book. I know it's been a labor of love. Let's tell the podcast listeners a little bit about your new book, and then we're going to dive into it.


Ben Azadi: Yeah, and thank you so much for endorsing the book. You wrote a great testimonial that I was honored to include in the book. So, thank you. And thank you for welcoming back to your show as well, your awesome podcast.


Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely.


Ben Azadi: Yeah, the book has been a labor of love, like you’ve mentioned. It took me a little over two years to get it complete. It's 311 pages, and I believe it's 311 pages of keto gold. I really got into the history of keto and fasting. Then, I outlined some of the science, but in practical ways, so you could apply it. It really just dives deep into my four-pillar approach to keto and fasting, which is first getting into ketosis, the Fat Adaptation Period, which is the first pillar. The second pillar is called Fast, because we do different fasting strategies. The third pillar is called Phase, we phase out all antinutrients, we actually do a variation of carnivore. Then, it leads you to that fourth pillar, which is my favorite, the Flex Pillar, where we intentionally get yourself out of ketosis, and we start flexing in and out. In a nutshell, that's what the book is about. There's also a chapter on sleep in there. I just couldn’t-- as you know, you talk about it a lot, you can't leave the sleep out of the conversation. 


There's also chapter 12, on how to apply it for women who are cycling and women who are postmenopausal, so that's a general overview of the book.


Cynthia Thurlow: Well, I think of you as one of my favorite keto experts, and I love-- I've read the book from cover to cover. I really love that you make the information accessible because we forget sometimes when we understand things at a deeper level, that people are all starting from different points. They may have a science background, they may not. I think keto means so many different things to so many people. I was telling someone the other day when we talked about clean fasting versus dirty fasting, there's clean keto and dirty keto. One of the things that I really appreciate about your message and your positivity is that you talk a lot about what keto is and what keto is not. On many, many levels, keto was not ketofied junk food and keto is not copious amounts of butter, although, obviously, you want to enjoy your healthy fats. 


I'd love to really start from the beginning. When we're talking about a ketogenic diet, when we're talking about ketosis, I think a lot of people get fixated on numbers. I actually have a client of mine that is fairly new to keto. She has a keto meter, and she has a Lumen, and she has a Biosense meter. She's very, very preoccupied with the values that she's getting. I was trying to kind of spin her out of that mindset. Let's talk a little bit about, just briefly, what is ketosis? Why do we want to be in ketosis? Why do we want to aim for this? And why we shouldn't be fixated on devices? It's not to suggest that there isn't value, but we don't want to be bouncing back and forth, because what I feel like happens is people get so fixated on a number, much like they do when they're on the scale, that they lose sight of all the wonderful things they're already doing for their bodies. Let's start there.


Ben Azadi: Great question. Great place to start, Cynthia. Keto, technically, is not a diet, it's a metabolic process. Every single one of our ancestors did keto. Their environment forced them into periods of time where they were burning fat and their brain needed an energy source and that energy source was ketones, beta-hydroxybutyrate. There's nothing new about it. It's just a little bit more nuanced. A lot of people come to keto, because they're thinking about it as a weight loss tool, or some sort of a fad diet. But that's not necessarily what keto is, it's a metabolic process.


There are tremendous benefits to teaching your body to burn fat as the primary fuel source, not the only fuel source, but the primary fuel source. Number one, when we look at the body from that [unintelligible [00:09:03] lens, we see that there's about 50 to 70 trillion cells inside of the body. Out of those trillion cells, we only have two options for fuel. Either the cells are burning glucose, sugar, or burning fat, producing ketones. When the cells are stuck as sugar burners, glucose burners, it's a toxic fuel source. It creates a lot of cellular toxins. Same thing if I burned firewood in this room right now, it would create smoke, which are toxins, the cells produce energy via the mitochondria ATP, and it produces toxin, cellular smoke. When you're burning glucose, it creates a lot of these cellular byproducts. I compare that to a Mack truck that speeding through the streets with all the smoke being blasted out the exhaust pipe. Well, that Mack truck, not healthy for the surrounding environment. You have all the smoke being blasted on the cars, on the trees, on the road. When the cells are burning glucose and only glucose, it's like that truck. It's not healthy for the cellular environment.


Why would we want to use keto? Well, we want to teach the cells to switch over to burning fat, which is a cleaner source of energy for the cells. I compare that to a Tesla, cruising through the streets, much cleaner for the surrounding environment, much cleaner for your cellular environment. That's what we want to do. We want to teach the body to burn fat instead of sugar, and we're designed to burn fat. It is our primal birthright. Babies that are given breast milk, go in and out of ketosis because breast milk has saturated fat and cholesterol. It helps the development of the baby's brain. Then, my final point here is when we look at the cells, there is this lipid bilayer, lipid meaning fat, so this cell membrane, which is the intelligence of the cell. It was once believed that the DNA nucleus was the intelligence of the cell. But Dr. Bruce Lipton, who I just interviewed two days ago, he has proven that it's actually the membrane that communicates through the DNA. Well, the membrane is made up of protein, saturated fat, and cholesterol. So, the body loves fat, we thrive off of fat, and that's why we want to use clean keto, to get into ketosis.


Cynthia Thurlow: I love that explanation, because it really exemplifies the fact that keto is not something that's trendy, much like fasting. We talk a lot about this. I think for so many people, there's this misconception about what it is. I love that you emphasize not only in your book, but throughout social media and all of your content, that we really want to burn our own fat. So, endogenous fat as a fuel source, as opposed to exogenous. That doesn't mean we don't enjoy a fatty piece of meat, or avocado, or-- I don't used to like to use nuts as an example, because they're so easy to overeat, but high-quality olive oil and those kinds of things. We want to make sure that we're enjoying those things, but primarily, we want to burn our own bodies’ fat, and that is a huge departure from a lot of the, as I call, kind of funny keto that I see on social media where people will have these massive plates of cheese and avocado and bacon and all sorts of stuff, like nuts. 


It's so easy, because it's such a macro-dense food entity, that it's so easy to overdo it. It's one of the few things that I will measure. If I'm measuring out macadamia nuts or measuring out oil, I always measure it as opposed to, I eyeball most other things. I eyeball protein, I will eyeball non-starchy vegetables, I will eyeball fruit, because it's just so easy to get on that slippery slope. Do you find for a lot of your clients that it's not until they get really honest with themselves that they're able to acknowledge that maybe they're overdoing it? It's so easy, because fats are delicious. It's easy to eat a lot of guacamole and a lot of nuts and a lot of cheese and things like that. 


Ben Azadi: Yeah, I do see that. Typically, they come to that realization, and I help them come to that realization when they hit a stall. They're like, “Oh, I was losing about two pounds a week. And all of a sudden, I'm not losing anything.” I asked them, “How much fat are you eating? You could get your fat calories from the plate of food in front of you, or you could get it from your butt, your hips, and your thigh. Maybe it's time to increase the protein and decrease the fat, like your body burn its own body fat.” 


Now, in the beginning, I think it's great to have an abundance of healthy fat-- I say the beginning of the first 14 days of doing keto, because that'll start teaching your body to start utilizing fatty acids instead of glucose. But after that, if you have extra body fat on your body, which a lot of people have, then it is a good idea to start increasing the protein, decreasing the fat. To your point, Cynthia, allow the body to tap into its own body fat as a fuel source. It typically happens when that person hits a stall, and then we look at what they're having. It's a handful of cashews leading to three handfuls of cashews, it's the guac, it's the fat in the coffee, which I'm all for, all those healthy fats, but the body does need to burn those calories before it burns the body fat calories.


Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely. It's interesting. I was interviewing Maria Emmerich a couple weeks ago, and she's just amazing. This little ball of energy.


Ben Azadi: Agreed. 


Cynthia Thurlow: She was mentioning that she thinks of nuts as carbs. It was really interesting because in my mind, I've been like, “Oh, they're fats, they're fats, they're fats.” Then, I started reading the packages that nuts come in. In my house, we have to be really careful because I have a child with a nut allergy, but I do enjoy on occasion, macadamia nuts. They're one of my favorite things. I was saying to my husband, I was like, “Wow, I never thought about it.” It's something so simplistic, but when she said, people overeat nuts, and it's really a carb problem, it's not so much a fat problem, I was like it's amazing how someone can say something to you can completely spin your whole impression of a particular food source and you're like, “You're right, people overdo nuts.” Macadamia nuts, for anyone [unintelligible [00:14:58] they tend to be lower carb than a lot of other nuts, so let's be clear about that. But just something if people are struggling with plateaus, weight loss, etc., just being really honest about your portion sizes, as it pertains in particular to nuts and cheese, which I don't think people overdo it with seeds. I think people overdo with nuts, especially like a dry roasted nut or really good quality cheese. No one's eating an ounce of cheese. Let's be honest, no one is doing that. 


Now, I got some questions on social media about testing for ketones. Like I was saying, a lot of people are very data driven, a lot of the biohacking influence, which I think is super cool, and I'm doing a whole biohacking month in the podcast. 


Ben Azadi: Oh, cool. 


Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, because people are asking a lot of questions. I would say, “Let me bring in the experts because I'm interested in this, but it's obviously not my area of expertise.” When we're looking at ketones, I know you can test urine ketones, you can test blood ketones, you can use things like Lumen to get a sense for whether or not you're predominantly in fat versus carbohydrate burn. What are your thoughts on these? Are these helpful in the beginning when people are first kind of dipping their toe in the pond of keto? Or, do they become an impediment as people become fixated on numbers, like oftentimes they do with the scale?


Ben Azadi: Hmm, I could think it could be all the above. In the beginning, and I say it in the book, I like to really teach the person that you don't want to chase ketones, you want to chase results. With that being said, is it a good idea to test in the beginning to make sure you're hitting those numbers and your protocol’s working for you? I think so. There's three ways to test. As you mentioned, there's acetoacetate, which is in the urine, it's expelled in the urine. There's acetone, which is the breath. And then there's BHB, beta hydroxybutyrate, which is found in the blood. I'm going to eliminate the urine one acetoacetate, just because when the body is efficient and the brain is efficient at using those ketones, it will not spill out in the urine. I'm sure you see it all the time. “I'm doing keto perfectly, but my urine showing that I'm not in ketosis.” When in reality, they probably are, it's just that their body’s using it, which is a good thing. I don't like the urine strips, maybe the first few days, after that not a big fan of them.


For breath, I have seen different meters over the years, and they have been really irregular and not that accurate. I like Biosense, you mentioned Biosense, they're actually a great meter. I've never experimented with Lumen, so I have no input on them, I know that you like them. Biosense is great, but I'm going to focus on blood, because that's kind of the gold standard beta hydroxybutyrate. There's different machines. There's Keto Mojo, there's Keto Coach, other machines you can use. I do recommend getting a meter, especially in the first month. The sweet spot I've seen for ketones, BHB, the blood ketones, is somewhere between 0.8 and about 3.0 or 2.8 to 3.0, somewhere in there. We don't necessarily want high amounts of beta hydroxybutyrate in the bloodstream, because it just means your body's not really using it. But 0.8 to 2.8, or 0.8 to 3.0 is a good range to be in, it means you're burning fat, and you should feel really good. You should feel those effects of the ketones. 


At the same time, it's also important to look at your glucose because if the glucose is high, and you have ketones present, the body will utilize the glucose because it's more of a toxic fuel source. The body wants to get rid of the toxic fuel source first. For fasting glucose, 70 to 90 is a good range. Then I also like looking at postprandial glucose, an hour after eating. I like that to be below 120, then two hours after eating below 100. If you're getting all those, if you're hitting all those markers, you're in between 0.8 and 2.8 ketones, you're hitting those ranges for glucose, you're doing the right thing.


But the problem is this, like you said, so many people are fixated on the number on the glucose and the ketones and you'll get there over time. If you're not hitting those numbers, stick with it, stick with the protocol, maybe reassess. It could be your sleep is a little bit off, it could be some other things going on with stress, reassess the fundamentals and then retest. But once you get really good at it and understanding that you're hitting your numbers, I don't think there's a need to test months or years in unless you kind of want to do it as an experiment. But for me, I know when I'm in ketosis, I don't really test that often these days.


Cynthia Thurlow: I think that's really valuable because for so many people they get, as I mentioned, they get fixated on the number and then they're forgetting about all the benefits they're deriving from their bodies. Someone messaged me this morning and said, “I keep getting 8s on my ketone meter.” I was like, “Hmm, I'm not even touching that.” But the point being that it's a good check in with yourself, but I do believe that once we've been in ketosis or had been relatively fat adapted, we know when we're in that sweet spot. We feel good, we have plenty of energy, a lot of mental clarity. We can exercise. It's interesting, I kind of have been diving into data-driven fasting. Are you familiar with Marty's work? 


Ben Azadi: No. 


Cynthia Thurlow: Well, he does a lot of work with glucometers. I think it's a great kind of concept. If people are stuck, we mentioned plateaus, and he advocates that people check their blood sugar before they eat. If it's not in that kind of fasting range that they hold off eating. Same thing, if they have a meal, and their blood sugar goes up by 30 points, that they have overdone it with carbohydrates. So, next time that they consume a meal like that, more protein, less carbs. It's really been kind of interesting, and for all of us that are in this intermittent fasting space, as we're kind of seeing what other people are doing, it's like, “Hmm.” That's where I think like some of that data-driven information, I think, can be beneficial, but not so that it then becomes the whole guiding principle for how we lead our lives. 


I know, even for myself, when I was wearing a continuous glucose monitor, and I had to take a break, because I was getting kind of tired of it. I was telling my husband, it was becoming like, I don't want to use the term ‘obsessive,’ but I was checking it so frequently, that I was like, “Okay, this isn't healthy, because eventually, I'm not going to wear this anymore. I have to get a good sense for how I feel after I eat a certain kind of meal or don't have a good night's sleep or any of these things.” I think these devices can be hugely beneficial on the short term, but we don't want to be obsessive about it, because then it can almost become a preoccupation. It's like you're not truly participating in your life, because you're so fixated on a result, or a number, etc. 


Now, I know that you have four pillars in the book. obviously intermittent fasting is something that I'm a huge fan of, as I know you are. But I'd love to kind of talk about the role of sleep, which we all know is foundational to our health, and how that can impact our ability to become fat adapted, have success with intermittent fasting. Let's talk about that, because I feel that, most if not all, people in the intermittent fasting space aren't necessarily talking about it enough, but it's so critically important. I would love for listeners to get a better appreciation for how you kind of tie that into the book as well.


Ben Azadi: Yeah, great question, because it is so important. Once you optimize the sleep, then the keto and the fasting and the supplements, and everything will work more efficiently. We know that from Scientific American, there's so many studies on there that show just one poor night of sleep will result in higher levels of cortisol the next morning, that stress hormone. Glucose follows cortisol, insulin follows glucose, and then ketones go down. Just getting crappy sleep will knock you out of ketosis and it wipes out your willpower because ghrelin is higher the next day, which is your hunger hormone, and leptin is lower. So, when you do eat, you're less satisfied, you want more food. So, you're just left scrambling that next day. Not a good idea. If you could just optimize getting at least seven hours of quality sleep each night, you'll make better decisions the next day, you will have more optimal numbers for glucose, and you're going to be able to get into ketosis. 


So many wonderful things happen during sleep, you educate about that all the time, Cynthia. One of them, during delta sleep, is the brain literally shrinks in size, which is super cool. You have this cerebral spinal fluid that flushes over the brain like dishwasher fluid. It starts flushing out accumulated plaques and proteins and toxins via the glymphatic system. All this is happening while you're just sleeping, you're unconscious. Not to mention, you're also activating your fat-burning hormones, growth hormone is spiking, you're burning fat. Your body's repairing and recovering. Nobody burns fat in the gym and builds muscle in the gym, by the way. They do it when they recover, and sleep and repair. That's where the magic happens. We want to, yes, exercising and be active, but then you want to pair that with the recovering and the repair. So many great things are happening during sleep. So many people sacrifice sleep to go exercise at the gym to go that CrossFit workout, but if they actually got that extra hour of sleep, they'll get more benefits that way.


I'm a big fan of it. Then, I think it's chapter 11 in the book, 15 biohacks for sleep. It's a short chapter, and I just give you 15 biohacks and you could just apply some of them or all of them, but it'll help you get better sleep starting tonight. As you know, it's so important, Cynthia.


Cynthia Thurlow: No, it really is. I think that it's undervalued, underappreciated, and maybe that is one of the blessings out of the past year for so many of us is that we've had to slow down. For me, I used to be one of those people that would jump out of bed at 4:30 and go to this crazy conditioning class and then, run see patients in the hospital and run home to pick up my children after school. The one thing I've started doing is I've started sleeping in later. I don't get up at 4:30 or 5:00, and oftentimes it's 6:00 or 6:30, sometimes 7:00, and that extra hour, hour and a half, two hours of sleep is just bliss. Anyone that recalls how things were-- and I'm laughing-- you just recently got engaged, but I'm thinking back to when my husband and I had babies at home. Those first couple years of your children's life where, especially for six months, you really don't get enough sleep. I used to think back to the fact that, “Oh my God, while I was breastfeeding, I could finish a pan of brownies, or I could eat a ton of cookies.” That's not normally how I eat, but because I was so sleep deprived, my body was looking for a quick source of fuel. I wasn't craving broccoli, although I certainly ate plenty of it, but the point we're trying to make is that the most important thing you can do, the biggest gift you can give yourself, is getting a good night of sleep every single night, and doing it in a way that-- just like we prepare our children to go to sleep at night, we kind of have a process. 


You may not be at this point, Ben, but I am definitely at this point where I have a whole sleep ritual. If I do all the things, then I will get a good night's sleep. Like I woke up this morning, had a fantastic night of sleep. I was able to go to the gym, do all the things, I've been busy, busy, busy all day. On days when I don't get a good night's sleep, I mean, that's the days that I'll crave junk or I'll just be grumpy. My whole family knows if I haven't gotten enough sleep. But the point we're trying to impress upon everyone that's listening is, endeavor to get high quality sleep. Let's give out one biohacking benefit of more sleep or one tip or trick that you would recommend, like number one for sleep.


Ben Azadi: Oh, number one, wow, that's a tough one. But I am like you, Cynthia, I have my routine, I'm very diligent. There's only probably two times out of the year, unless I'm traveling, but two times out of the year that I stay up past 11:00 PM, and that's probably Christmas Eve because my now fiancé likes to stay up till midnight for the presents and then New Year’s Eve, and I'm miserable, I'm like, “I want to go to bed.” 


Cynthia Thurlow: [laughs] Exactly.


Ben Azadi: My favorite biohack or sleep tip would be the money time sleep window. There is some time between 10:00 PM and 2:00 AM, you get most of that delta sleep to growth hormone, and it's based off of a circadian rhythm. The sun goes down, we're supposed to go to bed, shortly thereafter. It's been estimated that one hour of sleep within this window is equivalent to two hours of sleep outside of this window in getting that deep delta sleep. If you could prioritize going to bed between-- going to bed by 10:00 PM, being asleep 10:00 PM to at least 2:00 AM, you're going to maximize this window. I love that tip. Of course, it's different based off of where you live in the world. Sometimes, the sun goes down a lot earlier, you might need to go to bed earlier, but that's a powerful tip. I'll give one more real quick, and that's banana tea. I talk about this in my book, and I learned about it from Dr. Michael Breus, American sleep doctor. It is keto friendly, by the way, you just grab a whole banana, you leave the peel on, but you cut off the ends. The peel of the banana has more micronutrients, potassium, magnesium than the actual banana itself. You just let it boil-- make sure it's organic, let it boil with about two cups of water until the peel starts to turn brown. Then you just pour that into a cup, you could add some cinnamon or some chamomile in there, drink that. It's like nature's NyQuil, that could help you relax and get ready for your nighttime routine.


Cynthia Thurlow: That's fantastic. I think back in my nutrition program, I heard about that, but I've never done it. But there's certainly a lot of people that listen to this podcast that struggle with sleep, so that's a really easy tip, because I would imagine nearly everyone has a browned-up banana in their kitchen that needs a purpose, a higher purpose.


Ben Azadi: [laughs] Yeah, we all do.


Cynthia Thurlow: Yes. Let's pivot a little bit and talk about some of the modifications to the fasting mindset, diet, nutritional program that you have really become known for. I know that last year when we met, you did a whole month of carnivore, which is a great way to kind of reset the gut. I certainly became a carnivore-ish gal in 2019 when I was trying to recover from being in the hospital. But I'd love for you to kind of touch on some of the unique things that you've done with the traditional ketogenic diet that have really been hugely impactful for your clients and for your keto camp community.


Ben Azadi: Yeah, absolutely. I love carnivore as well as a tool. Carnivore is a great go-to. For fasting, the way that I apply it is, after somebody’s fat adapted, and I think that's going to make a big difference because fasting the way that I look at it is, it's a muscle. We want to develop that muscle, build that muscle, and we start low and slow, just like if you were a couch potato for 10 years, you wouldn't just go and do a CrossFit workout tomorrow. You would train for it, you build up your muscles, you would make sure you're ready for that workout. Fasting similar, it's a tool, a very powerful tool, but a chainsaw is a powerful tool and a chainsaw can get you amazing results or a chainsaw could hurt you, huh, Cynthia?


Cynthia Thurlow: Yes. 


Ben Azadi: [laughs] I see you’re laughing. [unintelligible [00:29:44]


Cynthia Thurlow: I was an ER nurse in my past life. I've seen a lot of unique traumas related to machinery. [chuckles] 


Ben Azadi: I can only imagine what you saw there, wow, yeah. So same thing, fasting is a heavy machinery tool that could be amazing, but the most important thing is how you use that tool. There's different fasting strategies. I know that we both agree that variety is the spice of life. You say that often and how we shouldn't stick with the same fasting schedule or the same keto foods over and over and over because your body will achieve a homeostasis and you'll begin to plateau, just like you wouldn't do the same workout over and over. 


I like different fasting strategies. I like an 18:6 for most days, meaning 18 hours fasted, 6 hours eating with two keto-friendly meals within that window. I think having a 24-hour water fast, once per week, could be profound, for not just fat loss, but for autophagy, that cellular repair, and also healing the gut. There's some really great research. MIT has a study that shows 24-hour fast strengthened intestinal stem cells. Those are a couple ways to do it.


Then, you could also throw in a block fast, which is an extended water fast, three or more days. Of course, you want to work with somebody for doing that, you want to monitor your glucoseyou’re your ketones. I love fasting, especially when you pair it with keto, because they both do two things that we all need. They both lower glucose and insulin, allow the body to burn fat, reduce inflammation, heal the gut, and let your body harness this innate intelligence, this inner position within us. Those are a few of the strategies that I use, and I talk about it in the book.


Cynthia Thurlow: How do you think we've gotten so far off base as a nation? I know that's kind of overly simplistic, but when I reflect back even to when I started practicing as a nurse and a nurse practitioner, we've seen these profound shifts in the way that people eat, and the way that people drink and it doesn't necessarily have to be alcohol. But the amount of accessible, sugary drinks that people can be consuming from the moment they wake up to the moment they go to bed, I think a recent statistic I read was that the average American over the course of 24 hours-- this is unbelievable, 19 out of 24 hours, they are consuming something sugar sweetened or consuming food. That just blows my mind. I'm like, “Really, there's just five hours out of the day that people aren't eating something?” That just blows my mind. Where do you think we got so off base? I know this is more of like a philosophical question, but these are the things that I-- the longer I do this, the more I just think like, where did we get so off base that we were conditioned to believe that we should eat all day long, and not move our bodies and not sleep enough and not manage our stress? It's kind of the antithesis of the way that our ancestors lived. 


I'm not suggesting that our ancestors didn't have stress, they had a lot of stress, but it doesn't optimize the human physiology. It's not good for us on any level. I think the more I get invested in brain health-- and there's a really great book I'm reading by a researcher out of Cornell, and she really looks at the women's health and brain health in particular. The more I read her book that I'm like, “Wow, gotten so far off base.” I'd love to get your insights. I know you're able to interact with some of the most bright, intelligent, capable human beings in this space. What have you absorbed from the discussions that you've had with other experts?


Ben Azadi: Yeah, that is crazy. 19 hours out of a 24-hour period. I heard a similar stat, Cynthia. My colleague, Dr. Don Clum, who is a chiropractor. He did a patient survey on hundreds of his patients, and he wanted them to write down every time they ate something, meaning a snack, even if it was healthy. The average person was snacking 17 to 23 times per day. They were eating 17 to 23 times per day, in this constant fed state. How did we get to this place? We're not designed to do this. We're designed for this metabolic flexibility to eat, and then fast, feast-famine cycles. We're still hardwired, every single cell, every single DNA in the cell, hardwired for the old school to this day. It's been intentional. We look at Frankenfood companies, Big Pharma. They make a lot of money when people are eating a lot of their products. They're addicted to their products. We have brilliant scientists who are paid a lot of money to manufacture food that we become addicted to. Human beings are the only species smart enough to create their own food and dumb enough to eat it. 


We have these scientists that are manufacturing these highly addictive foods that are really lighting up the pleasure, reward parts of the brain, which I'm sure that book talks about, the dopamine hits that we're getting all day long, and we become hooked. Then, they people pay more money for it and then people get sick, and then they have to rely on medications, which is another subscription. Medication is really just a subscription membership you're paying to the Big Pharma. We've gotten off track big time. We want to make sure we actually are taking responsibility. My life changed. I used to be obese, as I shared on the previous conversation we had. My life changed the second I took responsibility. That word is something that is lost on people, especially this day, that is your ability to respond. It is your responsibility to do critical thinking, to critically think and to discover what's healthy for you, to see what's going on out there, and to empower yourself and take ownership and just take it one day at a time. 


We've been duped by mainstream media, by articles on our Facebook feed, even by the government. I will share that George Costanza analogy that I learned from Dr. Fung. George Costanza was from Seinfeld and he was a character who was miserable on that show, he was unhappy, he was broke. He was just a depressed guy getting crappy results in life. On a specific episode on the show, he decided, “Okay, I'm going to do everything opposite of what I had been doing up until this point.” Instead of ordering a chicken salad, he ordered a tuna salad. He would walk up to a girl, and he would usually lie to her saying he's some big shot, but instead he said, “I'm George,” he would take off his hat. He'd say, “I'm bald. I live with my mom. Nice to meet you.” She would welcome him, and his life started to improve. He was happier. He was healthier, he was making more money, because he started to do everything opposite of what he originally had done up until that point. 


The point of the story is this, when you look at what the government is promoting, what the mainstream media promotes, do the complete opposite, that George Costanza effect, and you're probably going to go down the right direction.


Cynthia Thurlow: No, I think that's such a great point. It's unfortunate that we're in a position where so many of us either have to go through a health crisis, or we have to question what's going on. I always say my why starts with my children, and there was a book that I read, gosh, more than 12 years ago called The Unhealthy Truth, which completely changed my life. If you haven't read Robyn O'Brien's The Unhealthy Truth, that truly changed the trajectory of my career, my life as a mother, nurse practitioner, wife, etc. I am forever indebted to her because it really got me thinking very differently about the food industry, the role of big ag and the government. For anyone that's listening, it doesn't have to be that you go out and read that book, but when you read a book, and it makes you go, “Huh,” and you can't stop thinking about it, and it goes contrary to dogma that you were schooled with, or it goes contrary to the belief system you were raised with, that's okay. 


I remind people all the time, we are designed to evolve, shift, and change throughout our lifetime. I am not the clinician I was when I started in 1998. I am not the parent I was when I started in 2005. So much of that is because I allow myself the opportunity to critically think, investigate. Just like I told you that data-driven testing is kind of the rabbit hole I'm down right now, and I'm just like, “I can't stop reading about it.” It's so fascinating, but I think it's so important for all of us to read things that like stimulate the brain. That's why we're so fortunate that we have access to great podcasts, like yours and mine and many others and great books, like your new book, Keto Flex, and so many other books that I have the true privilege of being able to interact with the authors. I'd love for you to share, are there any books you're reading right now? I'm sure you're probably totally burned out on reading, but I always love to hear what other people are kind of diving into. What do you getting totally invested in right now? What do you nerding out over? Like, I just share what I'm nerding out over, that and brain health right now.


Ben Azadi: Yeah, totally. I love that. [laughs] We nerd out together, Cynthia. 


Cynthia Thurlow: [laughs] 


Ben Azadi: Actually, I've been listening to two books right now. Every morning and throughout the day listening instead of reading Dr. Wayne Dyer he has this ultimate library collection on Audible, which is just superb. Every morning as I make my coffee and I do my morning routine, I'm listening to Dr. Wayne Dyer. Then when I'm out and about driving or walking my dog or washing dishes or even cooking, I'm listening to Psycho-Cybernetics. Have you heard of that book before? 


Cynthia Thurlow: I have not. 


Ben Azadi: That book is a classic. It's from the 1960s or 1970s. Dr. Maxwell Maltz wrote it. He was a plastic surgeon, but the reason he wrote the book is because he noticed that when he would perform a surgery on his patients, typically in 21 to 28 days, the patient will feel like they actually had that new nose or that new ear or that new smile and they would live that way and be more confident. But there was a small percentage of his patients that never felt that way. Even months or years after the procedure, they still felt like they were that person with the big nose or whatever it was before the procedure, so he wanted to find out why. It turns out we have this self-limiting belief system and we have this, he called it a thermostat, and how it doesn't allow us to kind of breakthrough to achieve success in life, whether it's happiness or whether it's health. We kind of sabotage ourselves to reach this homeostasis of success. He talks about that in the book. 


It's just so fascinating. It really helps you understand this self-image, and it helps you break through. Maybe you are stuck with your health results and you keep sabotaging yourself. You do everything right, you starting to get results and then you have a weekend of just pigging out and you're sabotaging yourself. This book will help you understand that. I love it. I'm listening to it. I've read it in the past, and it made a big difference in my life when I read it several years ago, and it's still making a big difference to this day. Those are the two books.


Cynthia Thurlow: No, that's really interesting. He's differentiating, I guess between that and traditional body dysmorphia. People who actually are so incapable, I guess that's the best phrase to use. Incapable of seeing themselves with objectivity, they just see themselves completely morphed into the antithesis of what they actually are.


Ben Azadi: Exactly. He talks about that as well, the body dysmorphia component. It's a fascinating book. It's classic.


Cynthia Thurlow: [crosstalk] The other book that I am reading right now, The Secret Life of Fat. It's funny. It's like I get obsessive about a book and it's like that book, I must have turned over half the pages in it, and I'm trying to bring Dr. Tara on the podcast because I literally couldn't put it down. 


Ben Azadi: Same. Yeah, I read it. 


Cynthia Thurlow: [laughs] [crosstalk] -oh, my gosh.


Ben Azadi: I had her on my show. She's awesome. You're going to love her. Yeah, that book was so good to title is so good, The Secret Life of Fat. Something that I learned from her in that book was that women produce 33% more ghrelin after exercise than men. How amazing is that? 


Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. 


Ben Azadi: It's like nature telling you to go eat because women are healthier when they have more body fat to conceive. It's just so fascinating, so you're going to have a great time with her when you get her on her show.


Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, I'm really excited. She's been incredibly gracious. Tying in that hormone piece and appetite, I think on many levels, women feel so much pressure to look a certain way, to be a certain size. Whether or not that's realistic, remains to be seen, because I feel we have this increasingly obese, unhealthy, metabolically inflexible population. Then pre-COVID times, everything that you see on TV for the most part, in movies, is the antithesis, it's women who in order to remain that size, restrict can't eat, have to over exercise, and it's like how do we make peace? Again, this is another philosophical question, but how do we make peace with our bodies, whether we're males or females, feel like there's so much pressure on people to look a certain way. This is a pivot talking a little bit more about that book that you were reading, but I find that women are so incredibly hard on themselves and really have a preoccupation with being a certain size or being a certain weight, instead of just being very healthy, having stable blood sugar, sleeping really well. 


I have one woman in particular, who I'm very, very fond of. I say this with great reverence and love and respect, but she's so fixated on the weight loss piece that she's missing out on all the other things, the beneficial things, the work that she's doing. How do you help your clients? I know you have a large community, and I'm sure there are plenty of women who-- it's all this self-flagellation, we're so hard on ourselves. We deny food when we're hungry, great example of exercise, and we're designed to eat food within a period of time after exercising, how do you help them make sense of what they're experiencing? Obviously, validating feelings, because whatever people are feeling is real. I'm not indicating that. I just think we get very mixed messages in social media. We put people on a pedestal that look a particular way. It's really incredibly unfair. It puts so much pressure. I have boys, but I think how much harder it would be if I had young women in my home, given the things that they see on social media and in the media in general.


Ben Azadi: Yeah, it's a really important question because when we start to compare ourselves to other people, whether it's our friends or family or somebody on TV, we're pretty much setting ourselves up for frustration, disappointment. I always teach not to compare yourself against anybody except yourself. We just want to get better each day. The “beat yesterday” shirt that I always wear, because it reminds yourself to just beat yesterday, have better thoughts today than you did yesterday. It doesn't have to be dramatic changes. I think small tweaks lead to giant peaks. These small keys could unlock big doors, you’ve just got to keep pushing forward. But once you start focusing or comparing yourself to your husband, or a male counterpart specifically-- males are going to lose weight much faster on average than women. We have higher testosterone, and we hold more muscle, we burn more calories, so that's not a good comparison. But even if you're comparing yourself against other women out there, everybody has unique biochemical, individual needs and requirements, and your story and your journey is unique to you. The goal is just to beat yesterday, just to get a little bit better each day, and not to let the number on the scale determine your worth.


I know you see it in my Keto Kamp Academy Facebook groups, there can be a lot of-- I shouldn't say a lot, but sometimes members post about, “I'm three weeks in, I'm two weeks in and why isn't my weight budging?” Or, “My weight has stalled.” I always share the same thing. First of all, let's revisit the fundamentals. How's your sleep? How's your stress? How's your mindset? And then if that's good, well, let's focus on non-scale victories. Let's step off the scale, give it a good seven weeks. Do you have more energy? That's a win. Do you have more confidence? Are your clothes fitting better? What about your skin? Is it clearing up, some of the acne? What about digestive issues? Are you having less gas, less bloating? Maybe take some body fat percentage done? Those are much more important markers than the number on the scale. As the body gets healthy, you'll start to lose weight. It doesn't work the other way around. We don't lose weight to get healthy, we get healthy to lose weight. Pay attention to those non-scale victories. Don't compare yourself against anybody else. Everybody has a unique journey. If you want to take it to another level, get some lab work done. Look at your inflammatory markers, look at your A1c, that'll give you a full picture. As your body heals, you'll get to that goal weight. But don't let that number on the scale take you off course or distract you. 


Cynthia Thurlow: I think that's such an important point. Very clearly, if you're not hearing Ben's mindset, it's one of the things that I admire about him most is that he's probably one of the most incredibly, genuinely positive people in the health and wellness space. What do you attribute that to, Ben? Is it an active practice that you do every day? I know you mentioned Dr. Wayne Dyer. I know you have a very close relationship with your mom, as well as your fiancé. What do you attribute that to?


Ben Azadi: Thank you for that, Cynthia. I feel the same way about you, by the way. I attribute it to a lot of studying the self-development space, definitely Dr. Wayne Dyer, Bob Proctor and self-practice. Every single day, I have notebooks, I probably have 20 notebooks just filled with gratitude and goals. I'm very intentional with focusing my energy on what I want to work for me, because I understand the universal laws. One of the universal laws is that whatever you feed energy to expands, so I've been in that life where I was feeding energy to depression, suicidal thoughts, toxic thoughts, things that were not working for me, I kept feeding energy to it. I was complaining, I was a victim, and I got more things to complain about. That's the universal law. 


Cynthia Thurlow: [chuckles] 


Ben Azadi: Then I shifted my mindset, I started to understand the greatest power we have as a human being is the power to change your thoughts. We think about 60,000 thoughts a day, and most of those thoughts are the same thoughts from the day before, and they're usually negative thoughts. I started to study this and understand it, and I got really intentional and conscious on those thoughts. Whenever a bad thought came in, a self-limiting thought comes in, it still does to this day, I've gotten really good at switching to a thought that's going to serve my future. I do that with affirmations, with my intentional thoughts that I have throughout the day and gratitude and self-love. Those are things that I still practice to this day. I just love studying self-development. I just love studying guys like Bob Proctor and women like Lisa Nichols. Just as much as keto, I love that stuff.


Cynthia Thurlow: Well, I have a feeling you've got another book in you, Ben.


Ben Azadi: [chuckles] A mindset book?


Cynthia Thurlow: Yes, I do. I truly do. I just had that like-- I'm manifesting that because I think that your message is one that's so profound and so powerful. You mentioned a couple people. Lisa Nichols, who I've seen speak before is phenomenal. Wayne Dyer, Bob Proctor. Is there a book-- if you were going to recommend a mindset book for someone that's a newbie, they're just listening, they love your message beyond actually Keto Flex, but a mindset book, what would you recommend to them? Where would be a great starting point?


Ben Azadi: I would start with The Art of Living by Bob Proctor. It's a very easy read. It's a great starting point. Then, that could take you to some of his other books, Bob Proctor's books. Then eventually, I would like for you to get to Dr. Wayne Dyer’s Intentional Living, is a great book. I would start with The Art of Living by Bob Proctor and then work your way through the other books.


Cynthia Thurlow: That sounds fantastic. I want to be really respectful of your time, we had a little bit of a technical hiccup at the beginning of this recording. 


Ben Azadi: Yeah, that was fun. [chuckles]


Cynthia Thurlow: But I want to lead back to Ben's book Keto Flex. If you could leave listeners with one big takeaway from your book-- obviously, this is on my like top books of 2021, that is really valuable, will be a great resource point and inspiration for listeners that are interested in keto, fasting, cycling, modified schedules, etc. What would be a big takeaway that you think would be of value to them?


Ben Azadi: Thank you, Cynthia. I see your beautiful dog there. 


[chuckles] 


Cynthia Thurlow: Mine’s sleeping here. Yeah, the book talks right in the beginning, it talks about how important it is to be proactive and not reactive. Albert Einstein said, “Intellectuals solve problems, geniuses prevent them.” Why do we want to get to the point where we are actually being diagnosed with a disease? I also say in the book, if you're having a conversation with your doctor, and somebody tells you, “Hey, you have a disease that's terminal,” what they should really be saying is that their ability to help you is terminal. I mean, nobody should play God, I believe the body's really incredible, it could heal no matter what you're going through. The big takeaway in the book, I outline right in the introduction, and that is, there are three rules to healing the body. That is, number one, identify interference. Usually, it's more than one thing. It could be that you're eating too many processed carbs, too frequently, maybe it's toxicity, but identify the interference, number one. Number two, work on removing the interference. I help you do that with keto and fasting, and sleep and mindset in the book. Number three, allow the body to heal. Those are the three principles to healing. Identify interference, remove interference, allow the body to heal. That's what the book is going to teach you to do. 


I really believe when you treat your health casually, you end up a casualty. We don't want to do that. We want to be proactive, and I want to help you become a genius, like Einstein said. I feel like when you read the book or listen to the book when it's going to be out on Audible, you're going to be empowered to understand that you are a genius, you are a masterpiece, because you are a piece of the master, and that is the message I want to get across with the book. 


Cynthia Thurlow: Well, I'm so grateful for your time today. Obviously, this is our second interview, we will link up the interview we did in 2020 as well. Ben, let us know how to connect with you, get a copy of your book, which is on Amazon and is selling like wildfire. How can we connect with you outside of this podcast?


Ben Azadi: Thank you, Cynthia. I just love having these conversations with you. We do our weekly clubhouse every Monday at 5:30 PM Eastern Time, which is always a blast. The book is trending number one still to this day on Amazon, so you can get it over at ketoflexbook.com. There's a Kindle and a paperback available. Then late May/early June, there should be the Audible. ketoflexbook.com, and then anywhere on social media, just type in my name-- I would actually-- the perfect transition for your audience would be to go to my Keto Kamp Podcast, because this is a podcast, so just transition to my Keto Kamp Podcast. You can start with the episode, I had you on my show last year, and you're coming back, so that would be a great resource. Anywhere on social media, just look me up and you'll find me.


Cynthia Thurlow: Awesome. Well, Ben, as always, a pleasure. Have a great rest of your day.


Ben Azadi: Thank you, Cynthia.



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