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Ep. 511 Can Chocolate Help You Live Longer? – The Surprising Healthspan Benefits of Cocoa Flavanols with Dr. Amy Shah (CocoaVia)

  • Cynthia Thurlow
  • 21 hours ago
  • 31 min read

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Today, we have another episode in a series of conversations with experts and highly vetted companies.

In this episode, we feature CocoaVia, a brand of cocoa flavanol supplements made from a proprietary cocoa extract that aims to support cognition and heart health. I am delighted to welcome Dr. Amy Shah, who trained at Cornell, Harvard, and Columbia. Dr. Shah is a well-known expert on metabolic health and intermittent fasting. With a background in internal medicine, allergies, and immunology, she has helped many patients transform their health with cutting-edge nutritional and medical science. 


In our conversation, we explore cocoa flavanols, explaining what they are, their benefits, and how they work mechanistically. We discuss how perimenopause and menopause can lead to endothelial dysfunction due to low sex hormones, and the effects of lifestyle factors like circadian rhythm alignment. Dr. Shah shares foods she finds particularly helpful for middle-aged women and reviews the research on cocoa flavanols. We also cover the impact of cocoa flavanols on health span, longevity, and brain health, including improvements in memory, word recall, and spatial reasoning, and Dr. Shah offers guidance on supporting the maturation and health of teens and young adults.


Today’s conversation with Dr. Shah is practical and evidence-based. I also share how cocoa flavanols have helped my younger son’s focus and attention, and how my husband and I use these products in our daily lives.


IN THIS EPISODE, YOU WILL LEARN:

  • How cocoa flavanols support heart health, brain health, and longevity

  • Why nitric oxide production matters for vascular flexibility, especially in perimenopause

  • How circadian rhythm optimization improves energy, mood, and metabolic health

  • Why introducing fiber and probiotic foods slowly may be necessary for gut adaptation

  • How cocoa flavanols and other bioactives can enhance health span and lifespan

  • The importance of selecting the right supplement quality and dose to prevent ineffectiveness or excess

  • How cocoa flavanols can improve cognition, memory, and brain function over 8–12 weeks

  • Why natural drinks (coffee, cocoa flavanols) are far better than energy drinks or caffeine for teens

  • How combining core lifestyle habits with targeted bioactive compounds supports long-term health and longevity

“Take cocoa flavanol supplements in the morning, not late in the day.”


– Dr. Amy Shah

Connect with Cynthia Thurlow  


Connect with Dr. Amy Shah


Transcript:


Cynthia Thurlow: [00:00:02] Welcome to Everyday Wellness Podcast. I'm your host, Nurse Practitioner Cynthia Thurlow. This podcast is designed to educate, empower and inspire you to achieve your health and wellness goals. My goal and intent is to provide you with the best content and conversations from leaders in the health and wellness industry each week and impact over a million lives.


[00:00:29] Today, is next in a series of highly-vetted companies and conversations with experts. Today, specifically focused on the company called CocoaVia, which is a brand of cocoa flavanol supplements made from a proprietary cocoa extract that aims to support heart health and cognition. 


[00:00:51] Today, I'm joined by Dr. Amy Shah, who trained at both Cornell, Harvard and Columbia, who has a background in internal medicine, allergy and immunology, who's helped many patients transform their health using cutting edge nutritional and medical science. And she is also a well-known expert on metabolic health, intermittent fasting. 


[00:01:10] Today, we spoke about what cocoa flavanols are and why these bioactives are so beneficial to our health. How they work mechanistically and how in perimenopause and menopause, endothelial dysfunction is commonly seen in the setting of low sex hormones, specifically estrogen, the impact of lifestyle including circadian rhythm alignment, specific foods the Dr. Shah feels are particularly beneficial for middle-aged women, research surrounding the use of cocoa flavanols, how cocoa flavanols can impact health span and longevity, why brain health is an area of focus for herself and her patients, and how cocoa flavanols can improve word recall, spatial reasoning and memory, how to navigate the maturation and health of our teens and young adults.


[00:02:06] This will be a practical conversation about the benefits of cocoa flavanols, specific products that Dr. Shah likes to use with her patients, and one that I think you will find incredibly interesting. And I even share in this podcast how cocoa flavanols have helped improve my younger son's focus and attention and how my husband and I use these products in our day to day lives. 


[00:02:36] Dr. Shah, such a pleasure to connect with you. Welcome to Everyday Wellness. 


Dr. Amy Shah: [00:02:40] Thank you. Thank you for having me, Cynthia. 


Cynthia Thurlow: [00:02:42] I would love to really start the conversation talking about cocoa flavanols, why they're important, what exactly they are, how do they impact our health and why are they important for the aging process? 


Dr. Amy Shah: [00:02:55] Okay, so I think you've probably heard of cocoa, but a lot of people haven't heard of cocoa flavanols because they're not labeled on the back of a cocoa powder or your chocolate. So, sometimes it's hard to know, but it's actually a bioactive. So flavanols have these things-- Cocoa powder has these things called flavanols inside of them and they are nonessential, meaning we don't need them to survive, but they actually help our body in ways that we're just starting to understand heart health, brain health, longevity. These are really important ways that flavanols can help us. 


Cynthia Thurlow: [00:03:31] Yeah. And I think that to your point, I think so many people associate cocoa with chocolate and people are like “Okay, I'll buy into that," because we all like-- Well most of us like chocolate. Probably dark chocolate is something that we talk about on the podcast quite a bit. But how is this different from just eating dark chocolate? I think for people it's like giving them some context that it's more than just kind of a process formulation where we know dark chocolate can be this-- Well, it can be one of these things that can be part of a healthy diet, but it's more than just cocoa. 


Dr. Amy Shah: [00:04:03] Yeah. So, the thing is, these polyphenols, these cocoa flavanols are found in cocoa beans. But when we process the cocoa beans and we're eating chocolate, a lot of this is destroyed. So, actually to get 500 mg of cocoa flavanols, which is what you'd want to get all these like heart and other benefits, you have to consume 813 calories of dark chocolate, which, I like dark chocolate, but I don't think anybody wants to be or should be eating 800 plus calories of it just to get the benefits of those cocoa flavanols just because we don't--


[00:04:44] The way we manufacture chocolate right now, it basically destroys all those flavanol levels. So, unless you're actually taking in flavanols from cocoa beans or something like CocoaVia, that's my favorite way to get it, because they actually have that amount, the 500 mg in a single daily serving. And then you don't have to worry about having to eat insane amounts of dark chocolate. Still eat your dark chocolate if you love it, but you don't have to eat it just to get your flavanols in. 


Cynthia Thurlow: [00:05:12] Well, and just thinking, I think most people, as much as they might enjoy 800 calories worth of dark chocolate, they probably wouldn't feel good, number one. And number two, that would probably undo a lot of the positive things that we're doing within our diet. It's always in the context of how much of a food source are you consuming? And so, I love that you’re introducing us to this concept. And I guess, the other piece of this is if we're talking about flavanols, we're talking about signaling molecules, we're talking about these food properties that have benefits within our bodies. And certainly, on a mechanistic level, we're looking at breaking down these flavanols. They can be catechins, they can be epicatechins, but helping people understand like how do these work mechanistically in the body? What are those specific benefits or how do they work physiologically? 


Dr. Amy Shah: [00:06:04] So, here's the thing. Cocoa flavanols, I think the best way to understand it is to understand that they use nitric oxide. So, people might have heard of nitric oxide because it kind of supports the health of your blood vessels. It kind of opens things up. So, opens up blood vessels in your brain, in your heart and that's literally how it works. It increases our body's natural pool of nitric oxide. So, that way we are getting our vasodilation from a natural source. 


Cynthia Thurlow: [00:06:35] Well, and I think for a lot of listeners, they probably know as we're navigating perimenopause into menopause and we have fluctuating amounts of estrogen, we are losing our own endogenous ability for nitric oxide production. And it's one of the things that contributes to why women in menopause are generally at an increased risk of heart disease. So, when we're looking at the lining of our blood vessels, these endothelium. The endothelium is the lining of the blood vessels. And as we're losing nitric oxide and we're getting changes in estrogen, we lose our ability to have flexibility. 


[00:07:09] So, you talk about vasodilation, and what we're talking about is this opening and the flexibility of the vessels, which is very, very important. I used to tell my cardiology patients that flexibility of our muscles is certainly very important, but we're also speaking to this kind of lining of the blood vessels and making sure that we're supporting nitric oxide production, which is one of these things that in the setting of less circulating estrogen, we lose that ability to have that much flexibility within the lining of the blood vessels, so very, very significant. 


Dr. Amy Shah: [00:07:40] Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned women in perimenopause in particular, because I think, when we're talking about things that we can do for our blood vessels, specifically for our heart and our brain. This is something that most of us women and the patients I work with in this age range are really concerned with because we know that cognition and heart disease are two of the main issues that happen accelerate as you age for women in that perimenopause, menopause transition. So doing everything we can proactively from lifestyle to nutrition to the things that we're taking, both supplement and medications and the sleep, the sunlight, everything to support these kinds of especially the brain and the heart is useful. 


Cynthia Thurlow: [00:08:26] What are some of your favorite lifestyle measures when you're working with your patients directly, especially this middle-aged group of women? What are some of your favorite lifestyle measures that you'd like to incorporate into your conversations? 


Dr. Amy Shah: [00:08:39] One of the things I don't think we talk enough about-- I mean we don't talk enough about a lot of things, but one thing that I think can make instant kind of strides in your health is circadian rhythms. So, improving your circadian rhythms, meaning that getting some sunlight in the morning some time the earlier you can do it. So, if you can do it within an hour of waking up, ideal. And then also kind of really protecting our sleep and the darkness. So, the day-night cycle becomes more synced than the typical American, which I think one of our biggest problems that we have because so many, 80% of our biological processes work on circadian rhythms. 


[00:09:20] This misalignment of circadian rhythms is something that really exacerbates every problem. And so, I always encourage women, especially when they're starting to see like “Wait a second, everything is kind of falling out of place. I'm tired. I'm gaining weight. I can't sleep. My mood is down.” All of those things can improve by even just doing something simple as getting more sunlight in the daytime and then getting more darkness and sleep at night. So that's one of my favorite non-food, non-intervention, free for everyone things to do. 


Cynthia Thurlow: [00:09:57] Well and it's interesting, I think during the pandemic when many of us had so few things that we could do. One of the things that we did, we would walk our dogs. And my husband and I really got into this habit of getting out first thing in the morning, walking the dogs and doing it enough so that they're getting plenty of exercise, but we're getting additional 2,000 to 4,000 extra steps in sunlight, not with sunglasses on. 


[00:10:21] And to your point, we know that anywhere from 10 to 15 minutes of extra sunlight on our retinas can help kind of reset that circadian balance. And for so many of us that were have worked in healthcare and had crazy hours and being up when everyone's sleeping and trying to sleep when everyone's awake, I think that especially as we're navigating the changes that are happening metabolically and that loss of insulin sensitivity that happens for many of us in middle age, I think this is such an important aspect of just self-care that many people think isn't that much of a big deal, but really can

be incredibly impactful. 


Dr. Amy Shah: [00:10:57] Yeah, I think it's something that everyone can do and the reason I also like it is that you start to see benefits right away. Whereas like, okay, when you start to change your diet, it might take two weeks to four weeks or probably more like three months to notice a big change. But something like getting more sunlight and sleep pretty much as you know like within few days, you're going to start feeling better, so I love that. 


[00:11:21] And of course, the nutrition portion I feel like for women is such a big way to improve everything that's going on. So, just like cocoa flavanols, another bioactive that I think people are really familiar with is Omega 3s, it’s like getting more of those, getting more fiber, getting more protein, getting more even like probiotic foods into your diet. Those are all things I think I like to talk a lot about for women in perimenopause. 


Cynthia Thurlow: [00:11:49] I feel like fiber is so controversial in the space. There are people who are die hard anti-fiber, there are people that are pro fiber. I actually said to my husband because he just finished six months of antibiotics- 


Dr. Amy Shah: [00:12:01] Oh wow. 


Cynthia Thurlow: [00:12:02] [crosstalk] -dosed antibiotics. Yeah, when you pick up bacteria that you shouldn't have when you're traveling, doing a lot of travel and sometimes it's appropriate to be on them. But the point of why you're sharing this, we just returned from a wonderful stay in Mexico at this resort where they do a lot of emphasis on a lot of plant-based foods with some seafood and shellfish. And my husband probably at home, doesn't eat as much fibrous fruits and vegetables as he did on this trip. And I actually said to him, I think the reason why you're having so many symptoms, gas, bloating. 


Dr. Amy Shah: [00:12:34] Yes. 


Cynthia Thurlow: [00:12:36] I said I think it's six months of antibiotics and how your gut microbiome has been impacted by those alterations in good bacteria. And so, getting back to the fiber point, I think when people say, I don't tolerate a lot of fiber, I think it is more a reflection of what's going on in their specific gut microbiome than anything else.


Dr. Amy Shah: [00:12:54] That's exactly true. So, I get a lot of pushback. So, when I talk about fermented foods, for example, eat more probiotic foods and people will be like “Not if you have histamine issues or not if you get bloated or not if you have heartburn.” And I think it's exactly what you're saying, when your gut has a poor kind of functioning microbiome, all of these things are going to happen. And so, yes, initially you want to go slow and low, but that doesn't mean that you can never have it usually after you train your gut, you're able to eat a lot of these things, especially fibers, the exact, the total good example of this you know a little is good, a lot is not good. And then you just train your body. It's like you're not going to go to the gym and lift 300 pounds on your first day. 


Cynthia Thurlow: [00:13:43] Yeah. And I think it goes back to your point, low and slow portions matter. Don't eat five cups of Brussel sprouts if you have only been eating a quarter of a cup, maybe you work your way to half a cup. Maybe you have to cook them, maybe you don't eat them raw. But that fibrous piece is so important because it's feeding the colonocytes, it's actually feeding the cells of the colon, which is so important. 


[00:14:06] One thing that I think is helpful to tie it back to cocoa flavanols. How do these bioactives actually work into this longevity piece? I think certainly there's a lot of emphasis on quality-of-life metrics and longevity. But from your perspective, how do they fit into this larger conversation? 


Dr. Amy Shah: [00:14:26] So, remember that everyone of us, I think it's become so much more prominent, longevity, what are we doing for our longevity? Our health span, our lifespan? Health span meaning the number of years that we can do the things we want to do, and lifespan, the number of years we live. We want to do everything we can to support our heart, our brain, our vascular systems. And so that's why these bioactives can be really, really important. 


[00:14:52] Like I said, they're not essential foods for us, but they are literally like vitamins and minerals that are supporting us in our journey, our longevity journey. There're certain essential vitamins and nutrients and then there's certain ones that are non-essential like the flavanols that actually are going to help us keep our heart healthy, keep our brain healthy, keep our vascular system healthy. So, I think that's really interesting. 


[00:15:19] There's actually an amazing trial that they did on cocoa flavanols. They had 21,000 people in it. It's called the COSMOS Study. It's a randomized double blind placebo control trial. They basically did it at Brigham and Women's Hospital and they took 500 mg of cocoa flavanols and they found that there were significant improvements in heart health outcomes. And so, we do have good data that shows that these flavanols can actually improve heart health. 


[00:15:51] Actually, taking one of these flavanol supplements every day, there was a 39% decreased risk of cardiovascular death, so huge. I mean, 39% is a big number. And they found that it was at that 500 mg level. And then they had a follow up for brain health and that looked like it was about 750 mg that seemed to be supporting the brain health. So, people that took these cocoa flavanols actually found that their memory was better by 16% according to the study. So that was a big boost in memory. I don't know about you, but I want to do everything I can to improve my memory. And then they also found that a lot of those people, the people that actually took these flavanols, had better memory at the end of the trial than they did at the start of the trial. So really impressive results both on heart health and on brain health. 


[00:16:46] So I think it's great to do things that are, through our nutrition, that can be natural, that we can add to our diets. The only problem as you know with flavanols is that you can't just look at the back of a label and get flavanols. Although I've seen now, I've been looking and I've been noticing that there's more interest in like “Okay, how much flavanols is in this or that?” But really right now we only can trust the extracts that like CocoaVia has the Cocoapro extract, that's the extract that has been tested in all these studies. So that's the one that we know that we're getting the flavanol that it says. 


Cynthia Thurlow: [00:17:26] It's really encouraging because I know certainly after spending 16 years in clinical cardiology, I can tell you, watching a lot of my female patients that up until menopause were very healthy, very insulin sensitive, metabolically healthy, knowing that there are things we can supplement in our diet that can beneficial, not only from the perspective of just including more bioactive compounds that have the potentiality of these health benefits, but a reduction in risk of heart disease. 


[00:17:56] And we know that atherosclerotic cardiovascular disease or heart disease is the number one killer of women. One in three, statistically, we are more likely to be impacted by that. And my hope is-- Our generation is talking more about hormone replacement therapy, but there are other therapies that can be very helpful for decreasing the likelihood of developing that endothelial dysfunction, and the negative net impact on nitric oxide production, which again, is such an important signaling molecule. 


[00:18:22] Do you find that when you're working with middle-aged women and you're talking to them about, I'm sure it's a variety of lifestyle measures that you're working on them with. Are they open to the potential of adding in supplementation or do you feel there's still a little bit of a pushback about this? 


Dr. Amy Shah: [00:18:37] That's so funny. That's a great question. So, when I was in medical school and in training, supplements were the devil. People talked about supplements like they were like snake oil and everyone's trying to trick you and what's labeled is not there. And at some level that is somewhat true. As you know, if you go to the random Amazon section and they've had tests of random supplements, they don't necessarily have what they're labeled to have, so there's definitely quality issues. But I think that it was almost considered not good practice to either taking or recommending supplements. 


[00:19:18] And then I started to learn the research. And even in fellowship, so I did immunology fellowship. And I remember that year vitamin D was the vitamin of the year. And that was the first time I actually learned like crazy. But the first time I actually learned what vitamin D can actually do for our bodies in supplemental form. Some people just cannot get their levels up to the recommended level.


[00:19:45] Yeah. And so especially women in midlife. And so that was the first time I was like “Wow, this is something that so many of us should be taking,” same with like iron deficiency, I realized, “Wow, there's so many women out there that just cannot get their iron levels up with just foods.” So, I think over the years I've really changed my tune. I'm still not the person who's taking fistfuls in the morning. I still feel like who has time for three hours of getting potions and pills together, but I do think that there's definitely things that are going to change the game for us. And so nutritionally, supplementally, lifestyle wise, I'm not just depending on what's normal and accepted anymore as what I think is going to be healthy. 


Cynthia Thurlow: [00:20:35] Yeah. I always say there's wide range when we're looking at lab work and I have to remind people most of the values that we're looking at labs are designed based on men. So that's number one. Number two is normal is not optimal. And so, really personalizing recommendations for patients. And I too, as the years have gone on, I've gotten more open minded about targeted supplementation. And to your point, I've been at some wellness events where a colleague pulls out this massive bag of supplements and mind you, this individual is a favorite guest and someone I enjoy a great deal, have conversations with, Dave Asprey. But Dave has like100 plus supplements a day. And I just look at him and like “Do you ever choke on supplements?” 


Dr. Amy Shah: [00:21:17] I know. 


Cynthia Thurlow: [00:21:18] And he's like “No, I do great.” 


Dr. Amy Shah: [00:21:20] Yeah. And then my fear-- and this is just not talking about him, but like my fear is that taking these will have an additive effect in some way. So, for example, this happened to me, this just recently happened to me. My vitamin D levels were way too high because I didn't realize that I was doing a couple of things that were supplementing with vitamin D. And I think a lot of people are doing the same thing where it's like maybe a secondary ingredient in a mix or it's part of your protein shake and you didn't realize it. So, I think there is definitely a downside of doing too many. I know-- I can imagine that if you did the research and you really mapped it out, you probably be okay, but for most of us. And I consider myself an educated person and I was taking too much, so that definitely can happen. 


Cynthia Thurlow: [00:22:09] Yeah. No, thank you for sharing your personal circumstances. And I think it just goes without saying we have to be conscientious of how we might be getting-- We use the term polypharmacy in medicine, but-


Dr. Amy Shah: [00:22:19] Yeah.


Cynthia Thurlow: [00:22:20] -we could use the same kind of terminology and say, we could be getting small amounts of fat-soluble vitamins in multiple entities which may get us above a therapeutic level. Kind of getting back to brain health, because I think neurocognition, cognitive function is something that all middle-aged women are probably very focused on. And when you were referring to the COSMOS study, there's certainly this other aspect of we needed higher amounts of these cocoa flavanols to impact cognition, which I would guess is probably because we need more to cross that blood brain barrier. Is that, is that accurate? 


Dr. Amy Shah: [00:22:55] Right. Yeah. And here's the thing. I think one of the things that study showed us is that you kind of want to supplement eight to twelve weeks. So, you really need to look at it for two to three months to really see a difference. And then when they did that, they were able to see, okay, word recall got better, spatial memory got better, and then long-term memory got better. So, I feel those are the things for me especially, I mean that word recall, the spatial memory and the long-term memory, those are the things that I feel make the biggest impact on our well-being and long-term health. 


[00:23:33] So that study to me was just so powerful because you can't really get 750 mg of cocoa flavanols if you just eat the regular American diet or even take supplements. There's really not-- There's other supplements-- There's not a way to get it unless you're actually actively taking something that has cocoa flavanols in it. So, I think that's a really big point that I want to point out is like you're not just going to get it casually when you're eating your hot chocolate or drinking your hot chocolate. You want to actually take this. 


Cynthia Thurlow: [00:24:12] Yeah. Being very purposeful and I'll share transparently that our youngest son is a high school senior, just took his last SAT and did phenomenally. And I've been kind of-- I put all of his supplements out every day. And he's not on a lot, he's on a few things, some Omega-3 fatty acids and things that we know based on testing he needs. And he's been taking the cocoa flavanols for the last couple months. And for him because of-- He's just an intense kid, he is very studious. And so, he was telling me, he was like “Mom, I did so well on this last SAT.” And I have to believe, if we're looking at word recall, spatial memory, spatial reasoning memory, all of those things, if this played even a small role in that, I think that's pretty exciting. 


[00:24:55] I will sometimes play around with supplements in my house. We'll look at an adult and then like-- he's almost an adult. He'll be 18 in October. But seeing how does everyone feel a supplement is working for them. And so he definitely would be the first person to say he feels like he perceives a difference in cognition, his ability to focus, which I think is pretty exciting. 


Dr. Amy Shah: [00:25:16] Oh, my God. We live parallel lives. Because I have an almost 18-year-old who's turning 18 in October. Is that crazy? 


Cynthia Thurlow: [00:25:23] Oh. When is your daughter or son--


Dr. Amy Shah: [00:25:24] October 5th. It's my son. 


Cynthia Thurlow: [00:25:26] That's my son's birthday too. 


Dr. Amy Shah: [00:25:28] No way. He had. His birthday's October 5th? 


Cynthia Thurlow: [00:25:30] Yes. 


Dr. Amy Shah: [00:25:31] He's turning 18 this year? 


Cynthia Thurlow: [00:25:32] Yes. 


Dr. Amy Shah: [00:25:33] That is so crazy. Okay, so when you were saying that, I was thinking, I'm like yeah. Because when you said my son's a senior, I'm like, yeah, I know he's a kind of like into the supplements now, or he's asking me like what can he take, if that would be safe. It's like the creatine and the protein. He's all into bodybuilding and all. Obviously, colleges, the application process has started and so doing all the things right. I mean, that is, if you didn't just do an ad for flavanols, I don't know what is, because I think everybody that I'm talking to, all my mom friends and all the kids that are that age are trying to do everything they can. 


[00:26:11] For my kids, I was telling them that, obviously it's a long road, so you don't need to put so much pressure on each year, each milestone. But doing everything you can to get your brain and mind in the right place is the way to go. Getting more sleep, especially teenagers, I feel they skimp. These busy kids, they have to get up super early and then they're not getting enough sleep at night. Luckily for both my kids, they have outdoor campuses and so they're forced to be outside all day. And I feel like that is such a gift for both their mood and for movement and circadian rhythm. So that's been great. But I can't believe that they're on parallel tracks. Is he applying early anywhere? Well, you don't have to tell me on here, but if--


Cynthia Thurlow: [00:27:02] I'll definitely fill you in. But yes, I think for him-- And I talk openly about how he's my more intense kid just in general and so anything that--


Dr. Amy Shah: [00:27:12] How many kids do you have? 


Cynthia Thurlow: [00:27:14] So I have a 20-year-old who's a college sophomore and then I have my younger son. But they're as different as different could be as siblings typically are. But Liam, my younger son is the kid that is like if there's anything that I can take that is going to tap into my ability to focus and doing it from a non-stimulatory effect-- He used to drink espressos but now he doesn't even do that. But he takes high dose creatine. He does mixed martial arts. So, he's just a little bit of a more intense kiddo. But for me--


Dr. Amy Shah: [00:27:48] I love that. 


Cynthia Thurlow: [00:27:49] Yeah. But I think for anyone that has kids in high school, kids in college that, I'd much prefer that he use a cocoa flavanol than Monster Energy drinks. Sorry, Monster Energy drinks. But I think sometimes when I look at the amount of caffeine in some of these liquids, I don't want to say ergogenic aids. 


[00:28:10] I sometimes get concerned as a parent because I think that we forget kids don't understand that caffeine is a stimulant. Drinking too much of it, consuming too much of it, just like we all probably did years ago drinking coffee before exams. I think sometimes they don't understand that there's that kind of hormetic effect the cost benefit of-- the positive net impact of caffeine, but they take it times 10 and then they're wondering why they're jittery and they have loose stools and they feel like they can't focus. It can be the opposite effect of the intended effect of consuming more caffeine than usual. 


Dr. Amy Shah: [00:28:47] Yeah, I 100% agree. I'm not a fan of the energy drink culture. I don't know how you deal with this, but having two teens, so I have almost 18-year-old and then I have an almost 16-year-old, so 15. And I find that it's really difficult because you don't want to be that-- I don't want to be that parent that's always policing what they eat and drink and not allowing things, because I know and you know that they're doing it outside the home, they're doing it with their friends. So, I try to kind of just model good behavior and maybe encourage it when they're making good choices. But it's really hard to watch because I do not like the energy drink thing. And one of my kids, it's kind of like I think there's something called Alani. I don't know if you've ever heard of it, but--


Cynthia Thurlow: [00:29:34] I’ve heard of it. 


Dr. Amy Shah: Super. It tastes really good. And so, I think it's very enticing to want to have that and so it's a tough balance. I definitely don't think it's doing the kids any favors. I think it's better to have natural sources of caffeine like in a coffee, and then call it a day. 


Cynthia Thurlow: [00:29:53] Yeah, I think sometimes it has to be-- They have to come to the realization on their own. I say jokingly I feel like I've moved into the coaching position, especially with my college sophomore. And I always say, “Are you telling me this because you want me to listen or are you telling me this because you're asking for my feedback?” And so that has been enlightening, but the CELSIUS drinks, just like the Monster drinks. My younger son really liked CELSIUS till he realized that it messed up his skin. So, the artificial sugars, so that's how he stopped drinking those, because he would occasionally use them when he was studying. And he said, “Oh, I finally made the connection that when I drink that product, it gives me acne and pimples.” And so, he said, “If I don't consume the artificial sugars products, then I don't have issues with my skin.” 


[00:30:40] And so, he had to get to a point where it bothered him enough. And so, I said to my husband, “We can sit back and tell him, we're not going to bring this in the house. If you drink it outside the house, that's on you,” because he actually goes to a high school that's about 30 minutes from home. It draws from kids from all over the area that we live in. And so, he has to drive quite ways, and they give the kids quite a bit of autonomy like they can leave campus to go for lunch. They don't have as much structure as the typical high school kid, which is both good and bad. 


[00:31:08] So these kids would, you know they'd walk across the street and get a Monster Energy drink or do something else. And so, I agree with you, it's like as they get older, it's allowing them to have the freedom/flexibility of making choices and hoping they're making good choices. But as I've told my kids, and I'm sure you're probably similar, it's like I can't micromanage you. I don't have the bandwidth. That's not my personality. So, I just hope that I've invested in you over the years that you're making good decisions for the most part. 


Dr. Amy Shah: [00:31:39] Yeah. I think that's the thing. Especially, I think you have a college-- you said college sophomore. I feel like especially as they're getting older, it's almost like you're just -- You’re like right now I still control what we bring into the house, but I know it's not going to be much longer. And the older one drives and so it's not like he's always out eating with his friends. There's only so much we can control. 


Cynthia Thurlow: [00:32:04] Yeah. And I think it's healthy to check in with them, but also understand like I have imprinted you with as much as I can imprint at this point and go out into the world and make good choices about food. And my older son will be the first person to tell you if he eats junk, he doesn't feel good. He's like maybe in the moment I feel good and then afterwards I feel terrible. So, he's learned how to cook because in his apartment he knows that if he is cooking for himself, he's going to feel a whole lot better than if he goes and gets, I don't want to name any brands, but if he goes to a particular fast-food place, he knows he's not going to feel great. 


[00:32:35] I'd love to kind of bring it back to these cocoa flavonoids. When you're thinking about which products you recommend to your patients or family members, are there particular ones you’d like to recommend specifically for brain health and cognition versus heart health? And if so, what are your favorites? 


Dr. Amy Shah: [00:32:53] Oh, that's a great question. So, the one for heart health is called CocoaVia Cardio Health. So that one has the 500 mg that was seen in the COSMOS study. It's the exact same material and the same level. So that's the best way to kind of get your heart in check. And then for the CocoaVia memory, so if you're more interested in the cognition, brain health, there's a CocoaVia Memory+ and that has 750 mg of cocoa flavanols. But it also has a couple of other things. It has epicatechins from green tea, FloraGLO lutein, and caffeine as well. So, it supports a few different areas of the brain. 


[00:33:38] I think that one is probably the one that you were saying that your son takes. So, for those of people who are like “Wait, I want to know what got him an awesome SAT score.” So complex attention, executive function, word recall, a memory and the long-term memory, these are all kind of things that they've seen in that combination. And you don't want to take that one-- You definitely want to take in the morning, you don't want to take that late in the day, especially if you're sensitive to caffeine. It doesn't have the amount of caffeine that these crazy things have. And it's more things that-- combination of things that we know that can support brain health. And so, if you really want to have your brain light up, that one is the right one for you. 


Cynthia Thurlow: [00:34:21] Yeah. It's interesting, someone was asking me, “Is there anything I eat or drink before I speak on stages?” And I was saying, “Well, if it's in the morning, I'm generally fasted and that's some ketones.” But I think that for any middle-aged woman who's listening, who feels they struggle with word recall or their memory isn't as good as it once was and they've dialed in on sleep and they manage their stress and their nutrition is pretty good, I think that there's definitely a place for utilizing these supplements. I actually put the CocoaVia in my husband's smoothie. So, he gets a protein shake every morning just to kind of start his day off. And that's where I--


Dr. Amy Shah: [00:34:55] Yeah, that's a perfect place to put it.  


Cynthia Thurlow: [00:34:57] And that's where I put them. And I tell him what I'm doing so that he understands because he sometimes is skeptical of things. But I always say, “I feel a protein shake is a great way to stack a bunch of things in it.” And maybe he isn't even aware of it. I'm like “Oh, I've got all these extra good things. You don't even know it.” I'll just tell him I’ve put peanut butter in and he'll be willing to drink anything. 


Dr. Amy Shah: [00:35:16] I love peanut butter. Yeah, you could put peanut butter in anything and make it taste good. Are you a shake person? 


Cynthia Thurlow: [00:35:22] I would say probably maybe three or four days a week I'll start-- Not necessarily breaking a fast, but that might be the first thing I have during the day because I'm trying to be more conscientious about flax and chia seeds. And so, I'll just throw a bunch of things in there and maybe two hours later sit down and actually eat a real meal. But not necessarily every day because I do find that, I guess the longer I've been doing this, I really appreciate sitting down and eating. 


[00:35:47] I think for so many of us that work in medicine and it's like you were rounding at the hospital at 7 o'clock in the morning. You never got to eat a real meal. You were eating a terrible protein bar in your lab coat in between seeing patients. So now I try to really savor sitting down and enjoying a meal as opposed to drinking, but probably a couple days a week, for sure. How about you? 


Dr. Amy Shah: [00:36:07] Yeah, I love that background because I think I'm probably the same way as you. When I think about it, I'm like when I have my egg scramble with veggies and some cottage cheese or something like that, I just feel more satisfied with my meal and happier. And I feel like if I'm having a bar or shake for meal, it almost feels like I didn't really eat properly and then like I want to have food. And maybe it's because of all those years of the rushed mornings. 


[00:36:38] And I think it's also a product of slowing the morning down for me is the ideal day is not to rush through the first hour or two of the day is to actually like have time to do mindset work, to work out or have some downtime and then have a meal and then start the day. I think that seems to be for me working a little bit better than kind of rushing. So, every day I have this kind of conundrum of working out in the morning, for me is the perfect time to work out. But some days when things are stacked, it's almost nice to have a little bit of downtime before the day starts. So, it's always--


[00:37:21] So, a couple of days a week, I work out in the mornings now. And then a couple of days a week, I give myself kind of that slow morning so that I can have a buffer and then work out in the evening. But yeah, I don't like to rush through. Before I used to just have a shake or a bar and that was kind of how I did every morning and kind of rebelling against from that recently. Although, I think I'm ready to go back to the protein shake occasionally because to your point, it's just easier to add the chia seeds and the flaxseeds and all the flavanols all to one thing rather than eating it all separately, which takes a lot more time. 


Cynthia Thurlow: [00:37:56] No, absolutely. And I think, you know what? We're both stressing is just flexibility. I think we had so many years where I'd go to the gym, I'd shower, I'd get my kids to school, I would rush to the hospital, I would be rushing all day long. I was lucky if I got to sit and eat anything. And then I'd be rushing home, and that was many, many years of that kind of mentality. And now I genuinely really appreciate being able to be in a parasympathetic state, being relaxed when I'm eating a meal. We know it's better for digestion. It's better for overall health that we're not standing up and eating. I mean, how many years? I'm sure you were the same way. You're preparing your kids meal and you're literally standing up and eating with them [laughs] a big kitchen island. 


Dr. Amy Shah: [00:38:36] 100%. 


Cynthia Thurlow: [00:38:37] Yeah. 


Dr. Amy Shah: [00:38:38] I made this rule for myself actually after the first couple of years of practicing that I wasn't allowed to eat what was in the back room like kitchen, break room. Because what happened to me is like I would be super rushed and I wouldn't eat enough. And then come the afternoon and I'd be strolling into the back room and every time there was at least some kind of cookies or chips or desserts or potluck. And so, I had to make a rule for myself like I cannot eat when I'm there. And then I would just bring my food with me or wait till I got home, because otherwise it was just derailing myself every single day. 


Cynthia Thurlow: [00:39:18] Yeah, that's one thing I think the general public may or may not realize that most of the break rooms in healthcare environment are full of drug rep food, which is generally not healthy or it's like donuts. I trained in Baltimore and Krispy Kreme donuts are a big thing there. And so that was what people would do when they work night shit, they'd order Krispy Kreme donuts. And that was never my thing. And so, I think for a lot of people, it's like you get hungry and the only thing that's available is a super processed carbohydrate, sugary thing which just sends your blood sugar into a death spiral and then provokes you to then continue not making good choices for the rest of your shift or the time that you're in the hospital. 


[00:39:58] I'd love to kind of round out the conversation talking about where research is headed in terms of cocoa flavanols. What are some of the new things that are on the horizon or new directions the research is heading in? 


Dr. Amy Shah: [00:40:12] Well, first of all, I think people are just getting more and more interested because it's almost-- There have been ancient tribes that have been able to have this much cocoa flavanols in their diet. And so, I think there's good research going on into the kind of original people that incorporated this into their lives and how that affects them in the long term. So, I think I love when there's something that we've done ancient times or in different cultures that now is informing us in modern medicine, so I love that. 


[00:40:46] I think we're going to learn more and more about things like bioactives that we could be doing, adding to our diet that can support our overall diet. So, this means like you still want to get your protein, you want to get your fiber, you want to eat your probiotic foods, you want to get your sunlight, you want to sleep well, you want to have good social connections. And then there are these amazing bioactives that we could be adding. Like I mentioned, Omega-3s are different kind of bioactive that has also shown a lot of promise and people are more familiar with it. And similarly, I think the research is really mounting on flavanols as another bioactive that can really support us in long-term health. 


Cynthia Thurlow: [00:41:27] That's really exciting. Thank you again for this conversation. I've so enjoyed it. And I love that we have kiddos with the same birthday.


Dr. Amy Shah: [00:41:33] How crazy. 


Cynthia Thurlow: [00:41:34] Same exact birthday, same year. 


Dr. Amy Shah: [00:41:36] That is amazing. I think it was such a coincidence. It was such a fun conversation. I think all in all what I believe has really changed over the years. I really do think that sticking to the basics of getting a good diet, getting more sunlight, movement, connections, and then being very intentional with what you're doing in terms of adding things is the way to go. And I think for me, that makes me happier and healthier. And so that, I think is the key to longevity at least from the research and from what I'm seeing in my patients, and so that's what I concentrate on. 


Cynthia Thurlow: [00:42:15] Awesome. Thank you again for your time today, Dr. Shah. 


Dr. Amy Shah: [00:42:17] Thank you, Cynthia. Thanks for having me. 


Cynthia Thurlow: [00:42:22] If you love this podcast episode, please leave a rating and review. Subscribe and tell a friend. 



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