Ep. 465 Metabolic Health 101: Fat Loss, Toxins, and Seed Oils with Ben Azadi

Team Cynthia
11 hours ago
46 min read

Today, I am delighted to reconnect with Ben Azadi, a dear friend and a five-time guest. Ben is on a mission to help one billion people live healthier lives. With over 16 years of experience in the health industry, he is the author of four Amazon best-selling books and is about to release his latest book, Metabolic Freedom.

In our discussion today, we dive into why the calories in, calories out approach is deceptive and ineffective for fat loss. We unpack Ben’s life story, looking at the value of purpose and friendship, how toxins can hinder weight loss, and the benefits of eating less frequently for better metabolic health. We also look at the health consequences of consuming seed oils, the metabolic markers we should be advocating for, and what we could do to combat all the misinformation about health and metabolism within the mainstream health and wellness industry.

You will love today’s thought-provoking and insightful discussion with Ben Azadi and may even want to revisit it.

IN THIS EPISODE YOU WILL LEARN:

Why the calories-in, calories-out approach is ineffective for weight loss
Ben shares his weight loss journey, highlighting the connection between gut health and brain function
How environmental toxins disrupt hormone function and lead to insulin resistance and diabetes
Some practical tips for reducing your exposure to environmental toxins
How ketogenic diets and fasting can reduce insulin resistance and inflammation
What is metabolic flexibility?
Ben shares his take on seed oils
Which oils are best to use for cooking?
Being mindful when choosing who to follow and what information to consume
What you will find in Ben’s latest book, Metabolic Freedom

“When we focus on hormones and inflammation to lower cell inflammation, the weight comes off as a side effect.”

-Ben Azadi

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Submit your questions to support@cynthiathurlow.com

Connect with Ben Azadi

Transcript:

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:00:02] Welcome to Everyday Wellness podcast. I'm your host, Nurse Practitioner Cynthia Thurlow. This podcast is designed to educate, empower and inspire you to achieve your health and wellness goals. My goal and intent is to provide you with the best content and conversations from leaders in the health and wellness industry each week and impact over a million lives.

[00:00:29] Today, I had the honor of reconnecting with dear friend and five-time guest Ben Azadi. He is on a mission to help 1 billion people live a healthier lifestyle and has over 16 years in the health industry and is the author of four Amazon best-selling books and has an upcoming brand-new book called Metabolic Freedom. Today we spoke about how calories in, calories out is a failed approach to fat loss and is in fact deceptive, the impact of Ben's trajectory of his life story, the value of purpose and friendship, why toxins can be problematic when trying to lose weight, why nutrition and eating less often can be so beneficial when trying to improve metabolic health, the impact of seed oils on our health, specific metabolic health markers we should all be advocating for, and last but not least, why there's so much misinformation about health and metabolism in the mainstream health and wellness industry and how we can help combat this. This is truly an invaluable conversation one I know you will listen to more than once.

[00:01:38] Welcome Ben. It's always so good to have you on the podcast and I was looking through my old episode count. I think this is our fifth podcast together on Everyday Wellness.

Ben Azadi: [00:01:48] Wow, what a blessing. I can't believe that. I've enjoyed all of our conversations. I think this is going to be the best one yet. It's been really cool to see your growth over the years and what an honor to come back. Thank you for allowing me to come back and talk about the new book.

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:02:02] Yeah, absolutely. I couldn't think of a better time. It would have been better if I we could have done it in person, but I know our schedules are so insane so we just scrapped that idea and decided to do it virtually because we could make it happen prior to the book launch. Ben, I feel like there's not a day that goes by across social media that I'm not asked about the concept of calories and how-- it isn't just clinicians, it's social media, it is our conventional dogma around diet culture. The calories are the most important thing and all we have to do is exercise more and eat less.

[00:02:38] The concept of CICO or calories in, calories out is something that I know you and I are 100% agreement in, but I would love for you to identify what it is about CICO that does not lead to long-term fat loss or weight loss and why we need to find a reframe for thinking about calories.

Ben Azadi: [00:02:58] Yeah, I love that we're starting the conversation here because it's [Cynthia laughs] really popular, this method of CICO, calories in versus calories out. And it's deceptive because here's the problem with it. It works for the most part in the beginning, it does. I mean, if you cut your calories, you're going to lose some weight, but then it doesn't work, it stops working because the metabolism will adapt and match the energy coming in. And most people think, “Oh, I just need to exercise more or maybe cut more or combination of both.” And then it might work a little bit again and then it slows down. You can only cut so much until you destroy your metabolism.

[00:03:35] And the premise behind this, calories in versus calories out. The reason why so many people believe in this is because their premise is that we need to teach you to lose weight in order to get healthy. But that's not how the metabolism actually works. We don't lose weight to get healthy. We get healthy to lose weight. And what does that mean, get healthy? That means when we focus on hormones, when we focus on inflammation, meaning lowering cell inflammation, the weight comes off as a side effect. Because in reality, nobody has a weight problem. I was obese for 20 plus years. You know my story, Cynthia. I was 80 pounds overweight, 34% body fat, clinically classified as being obese. But I never had a weight problem. If you're watching and listening to this, you don't have a weight problem, it's a weight symptom.

[00:04:26] So, focusing on calories focuses on the symptom. Do calories matter? Yes, they do. There's a role. Are they important? I don't think so. I think they're more of a distraction. And in Metabolic Freedom, the new book, I talk about The Biggest Loser, which of course, you know, Dr. Fung talks about this a lot. These morbidly obese individuals, calorie deficit, extreme exercise. They lost a lot of weight. They celebrated them on the final episode. Then the TV show ended and they studied 14 of these contestants. And they showed in this study that 13 out of the 14 contestants gained all the weight back. And a portion of them gained even more weight prior to the TV show. And they measured their levels of leptin. As you know, it's a satiety, fat burning hormone.

[00:05:13] And they measured their levels of ghrelin, their hunger hormone, and found that their ghrelin hunger hormone was through the roof and their leptin levels plummeted. It just doesn't work. You have to rely on willpower, which is finite. It's frustrating, it leads to a distraction and it confuses people because they think it's just about cutting the calories, but it's not. It's about the hormonal response from those calories. And one more interesting study that I put in the book was done on two groups of patients. They were all obese, but one group, they gave fecal microbiota transplants to one group from lean, healthy donors. The other group did not get this transplant of fecal microbiota, and they kept their calories the same. Everything was controlled. But the group that repopulated their gut bacteria with healthy gut bacteria started to lose weight without any calorie changes.

[00:06:08] So, the gut microbiome plays a role, different macronutrients and the quality of those foods play a role. So, we needed to stop looking at the body as a calculator, math equation or a bank account and look at it as a very complex, beautiful chemistry lab. And when you start treating it as such and removing the interference, the weight comes off and it stays off. And it's as a side effect of getting healthy.

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:06:33] I think this is such an important conversation because as I stated, there's not a day that goes by across social media in our DMs, emails to my team that women aren't feeling like they've been fed a lot of lies and misinformation over the past 30 plus years. I was even guilty when at the very beginning of being a nurse practitioner, seeing patients in cardiology. I would tell them, “Okay, all we need to do is exercise more and eat less.” And we know this does not work because it leads to a degree of deprivation which then leads to binging over time. Because people, that willpower piece only works for so long.

[00:07:13] And, and I think it's a powerful statement to say we need to reframe the way that we look at obesity and how that is a sign of an imbalance in the body because it allows us to think about this from, we use the term multifactorial, multiple different ways of looking at this problem, but doing it from a solution-based format, as opposed to saying, let's shame this poor person because they've gained 20 or 30 pounds. It's a sign that something is off in the hormone piece, especially for women navigating middle age. I cannot tell you how many women will say to me, I'm doing the same things I was doing in my 20s and 30s. They're no longer working.

[00:07:55] I figured out that I'm not eating enough food or I'm eating too much food or I do really well all day long and then I get home at night and I binge because I've been so controlled all day long. And so, I think finding this reframe is so important because we all, and I speak to men and women, all of us need to find a way of navigating these conversations in a way that makes it a sustainable effort. And in your book, you have a photo of the before Ben, I didn't know you at that time, and the now Ben, who I know and have known for many years.

[00:08:30] And what's amazing to me and what really struck me when I saw the photos side by side was the Ben that I know is very positive, probably one of the most gracious, kind, loving, empathetic individuals that I know. And when I saw you in the before photo, I was like, Ben looks so sad. And how many of us that are dealing with metabolic health issues are, as a side effect, dealing with mood disorders, depression, anxiety, obsessive compulsiveness. And that's a side of this that I'm sure we'll probably touch on as we talk about how navigating a healthier lifestyle, impacts the production of healthy neurotransmitters. Fun fact, antidepressants and antianxiety agents I'm not saying that they're not important because there are individuals who truly, truly need these drugs.

[00:09:17] But how many people who are prescribed these drugs would see marked improvement in their anxiety and depression symptoms just by changing their diet vis a vis changing and adjusting the gut microbiome terrain and the production of neurotransmitters?

Ben Azadi: [00:09:31] No, exactly. There's a huge, huge connection between the food you eat, the food and the mood that you have. And that was my story. As you mentioned, I had mental illness. I was looking for ways to end my life. I'm not exaggerating here. I literally was looking for ways to end my life and I didn't go forward with it because I kept thinking about my mom. I didn't want to hurt her like that. And she had no idea I was doing this. I just kept thinking about her and it stopped me. And I was eating inflammatory foods that was creating the neuroinflammation. I was eating fried chicken and standard American diet and high sugar processed foods. And it had a direct impact on my mental mood. And once I started cleaning that up, a lot of that improved. There was a direct impact.

[00:10:13] And whatever happens in the gut, to your point, happens in the brain and vice versa. So, yeah, there needs to be more of a discussion for those dealing with mental illness, how can we look at the lifestyle, maybe in combination with the medication, but look at the lifestyle and see what we can change. What is causing neuroinflammation in your lifestyle? What's causing inflammation in your gut? Let's find out what that is. Remove that and your body will start to heal itself.

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:10:37] Yeah, and it's significant. And I speak from, you know, not just professional experience, I speak from personal experience. I have a loved one, someone that I treasure that went through having a strep infection and then suddenly had some personality changes like significant, started developing some obsessive compulsiveness. And I recognized and I have enough friends who are clinical psychologists that I reached out and I was mentioning that I thought maybe from the strep, this individual now had some neuroinflammation. And we did some specific testing, both blood work and brain imaging, and what we found was, I'm sure it probably exacerbated things, but that strep infection brought to light this person had literally almost no omega 3 fatty acids in their blood. So, these are helpful anti-inflammatory fats in our diets. This individual does not like eating fish.

[00:11:28] And so we had to make some targeted supplementations. And now this individual is taking some very targeted supplements. And the change in this person within two weeks of eating more fatty fish and incorporating specific supplements into their diet was so profound. So, when you speak to the fact that when you were not eating as healthy of a diet, how much of an impact that made on your mental health? I've seen that as from professionally, but also personally. And it can be significant and profound. And I just think we're not having enough of these conversations to make people aware that there could be another etiology or another reason why this is happening.

Ben Azadi: [00:12:09] That's amazing that you saw improvements in just a couple of weeks. That's really remarkable. And I believe that as well. I also believe a big part here which I talk about in Chapter 10 where I get into the longevity science of living on purpose with your purpose. I think when a lot of people hate what they're doing for a living, they hate their job. they just are so focused on the negativity of life, they lack purpose, and they fill that hole with these inflammatory foods, these bad behaviors. And that was my story. I had all these addictive behaviors because I didn't have any goals in my life.

[00:12:43] And I think a lot of people that are obese, for example, I think, yes, what they're eating plays a role, but I also think what's eating them plays a role, meaning that they haven't found out what's important to them. And if they do know what's important to them, they're just not aligned with it. They're living a life of what other people think they should be doing. And, there's a lot to be said about health and longevity and vitality and mental mood when you are aligned with what's important to you. And I think that's a really big piece here to the puzzle when it comes to health and longevity and mental health as well.

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:13:16] Well, and I think you bring up some good points. And I just interviewed a woman, she's a writer, Connie Bennett. She has a new book that's coming out and there was some interesting research that she discusses in her book talking about the influence of family, friends, and spouse or significant other. Now in my mind, I was like, “I owe the spouse or the significant other, you spend the most time with them. That would obviously be the biggest influence.” It's not. It's actually friends have the greatest influence on your weight. And so, birds of a feather flock together. But what I find interesting, being in the health and wellness space, and I know we both share this, how many individuals in the health and wellness space no longer drink alcohol? Never had a problem with it.

[00:13:56] But the more you learn about these specific habits and the impact on the body collectively, many people are making those changes. But it can have both a positive and a negative effect. And so, I just wanted to mention that because I think that having your purpose is important and also surrounding yourself by individuals that have similar goals, morals, ethics, focuses. Because it would be very hard. Ben, imagine, I know that you are very focused when and if you eat out about the seed oil piece. But imagine if all of your friends thought that was bunk science and had no interest in participating, how much more challenging it would be for you to eat out with that group of friends. I know for you, you are steadfast in your beliefs, but many other people would just say, “Oh, it's not important. My friends don't think it's important, therefore, I shouldn't think it's important.”

[00:14:41] So the influence of friends on the choices that we make, it's quite significant. Surprisingly, it is not just our spouses or significant others. Actually, our friends have a greater net impact on a lot of the lifestyle choices that we make.

Ben Azadi: [00:14:54] It makes a lot of sense to me. We become our environment. It is true. We've heard it time after time. I mean, Jim Rohn used to say this 30, 40 years ago. Like, “If you hang out with five people who are unhappy, they're complaining, they're unhealthy, you're going to be the sixth person. It's just a natural byproduct. You become your environment. Your environment determines the thoughts you think, your belief system, self-image of yourself, which then determines the actions you take, your behaviors, your habits, and then your results in essentially your destiny.” And you're so right, if you have friends who are pulling you back in the direction that you want to get out of, very challenging to make the changes.

[00:15:31] And I have also noticed, Cynthia, and I'm sure you have as well, when you start to make these changes for a better version of yourself, you start to become a threat to those friends in your life that are not making those changes. Not because I don't think they just want you to be unhealthy and unhappy. But it points a mirror to the changes that they're not making. And they'll say things, whether it's out loud or behind your back, like, who does Cynthia think she is? Like, no alcohol. Like what? Yeah, whatever, Cynthia. They'll say things behind your back because it points a mirror to them. And it's easier for them to drag you back than it is for them to also make some changes like you're making.

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:16:07] Yeah, I've always found it interesting that I don't have enough time in my day or my life to want to make fun or ridicule someone else based on a healthy choice. Like if someone says, I choose not to eat gluten, that's great. Doesn't bother me a bit. I choose not to drink alcohol. Not a big deal. But I do agree with you. That mirror, for some people, maybe it's someone who's questioning their own habits around a particular alcohol, sweets, etc. And so, I have a family member that takes it as a great affront that I don't drink alcohol. And I always find it so funny. In fact, the last time I saw this individual, I just said, what is the issue that you have with me not drinking alcohol. Like, “You can drink all the alcohol you want.” That's your choice. Just like I choose not to drink alcohol.

[00:16:49] And I think it has a lot to do with the fact that they themselves are questioning the amount that they are drinking and therefore it makes them uncomfortable and their way of acting out instead of looking insurance themselves to say, “Hey, maybe there's something I need to work on.” Like I always say when I get triggered, I always say to myself, “What is it that I need to work on a little bit more?” As opposed to just saying, “Hey, that's great.” That's you're doing what works best for you. And clearly, I got triggered and I need to work on something inside myself that has been triggered by the fact that you are choosing not to drink. I find it like human nature in general. And I know that you've done a lot of work.

[00:17:25] And for those that are watching this video, you can see Ben has a lot of books behind him and half of them are health books and half of them are mindset coaching books. And I've seen them up close and personal. So, I can attest to this. He really does walk the walk in terms of mindset, which I think is so important. I would love to pivot because one of the things in the book that I think you do a particularly good job with is talking about the role of toxins. And I think when people hear that, sometimes they think it's like just a buzzword. But we are inundated between exposure to toxins and personal care products, our environment, our food but they do have an ultimate end result on metabolic health.

[00:18:09] And I would love for you to walk us through a few of these to identify some higher-level concepts around toxins. Like, I think people, because they can't see an herbicide or a pesticide, they assume it's not problematic. And I'm here to tell you, I just got back from a functional medicine course that I'm taking and the thing that I was left with after this big presentation was, we have no idea, we have no idea how extensive this issue is.

Ben Azadi: [00:18:36] Yeah. Oh, wow. I want to hear more about that. Of course you did. But yes, I believe that these environmental toxins are probably the number one cause of metabolic disease and dysfunction. There's a lot out there and I think this is number one. So, Chapter 5 of the book, it's all about these environmental toxins. And I talk about two of them, primarily the two drivers of these toxins are obesogens and diabetogens. And I'll unpack both of them, what it does in the body. And then of course, some simple swaps for your viewers and listeners to make right away to mitigate this damage. It is true we cannot escape these environmental toxins. It is impossible.

[00:19:11] The body is equipped with these detox pathways, these downstream detox pathways, the lymphatic system, the gut microbiome, the kidney, the liver, the colon. Yes, we are designed, but with the amount of toxicity, we cannot keep up and detoxify these toxins. So, it is accumulating and accumulating, creating cellular inflammation, blocking hormones from getting in. And the obesogens are a big problem, especially for those who are overweight, insulin resistant, prediabetic, diabetic. Because these obesogens, they're called obesogens for a reason. Meaning when they enter the body through our food supply, water supply, cleaning supplies, that Christmas tree freshener in your Uber ride, whatever it is, even just going outside and the jet fuel that comes down, these toxins are everywhere when they go into your body, the body wants to survive. The number one priority for this human body, this innate intelligence, is survival.

[00:20:06] It will do everything and anything possible to save your life in the short term, even if that means developing disease later on, just to take care of yourself right now. So that means when these toxins enter your body, a pathway is turned on called PPAR-gamma. PPAR-Gamma will shuttle those obesogens, those toxins out of the bloodstream. Because your innate intelligence does not want those toxins freely circulating in your bloodstream, entering vital organs and killing you. So, it's very similar to insulin, how insulin shuttles glucose out of the bloodstream. PPAR-gamma shuttles toxins out of the bloodstream. Where does it go? Well, where is their room in our fat cells or adipocytes? Because the solution to this pollution is dilution. I could dilute these toxins by putting them into the fat cells. They're called lipophilic, fat loving.

[00:20:55] So, if there's no room in those fat cells, it will increase the size of your fat cells for those toxins to go in. If it runs out of room in those fat cells, it will create new fat cells for those toxins to go live in. That's how these toxins make us overweight and obese and inflamed. Then we have a new classification of toxins, Cynthia, called diabetogens. This is new. It's been in the literature last few years. And these are specific toxins. Like heavy metals that disrupt beta cell function in the pancreas leading to insulin resistance, prediabetes and also triggering full on diabetes. Studies are showing 30, 40% of these diabetics, it's being caused by toxicity, these diabetogens, they're everywhere.

[00:21:44] We hear about the microplastics. According to the University of Newcastle study showed the average American consumes a credit card size worth of plastic every single week. So, some simple things we can do. And by the way, these microplastics, they're finding in the brain, in the arteries, in the testicles of males, which is causing an issue with low testosterone and infertility in both men and women. Simple things, when we're drinking out of water bottles, we want to make sure glass as much as possible over plastic. When we are using Tupperware, glass over plastic. When you're using Tupperware, that's plastic. Even if you don't microwave or heat it up, you're putting fatty food in that plastic Tupperware and that's leaching. Those microplastics are leaching into the food. That's not good. Glass is fine.

Ben Azadi: [00:22:35] Plastic cutting boards, you get a whole bunch of microplastics in plastic cutting boards so you want to use full wooden cutting boards. And another thing is people don't realize that this one thing that you do probably every week is causing you to gain weight. When you say yes to cash register receipts, those toxins that you touch on that receipt are going into your body. As a matter of fact, studies are showing that there are a thousand times more BPA in these individual thermo-cash register receipts than canned food. And Cynthia, I know you've probably seen this at the supermarket. I see a lot of women, maybe they're holding their child or they have something in their hands so they'll grab it, put it in their mouth or put it in their bra. the receipt that's being absorbed by the body.

[00:23:20] Maybe you put in your pocket, you put your hands in the pocket, later on you're getting BPA. So, say no to cash register receipts and keep those detox pathways open. I talk about this in the book. Sauna is amazing for keeping those detox pathways open. Eating bitter rich foods that stimulate the liver to produce healthy bile for detoxification. Great for keeping the pathways open, moving your body, getting the lymphatic system going, great for your detox pathways. Taking binders is a great idea. Keeping your mineral intake up like fulvic acid and humic acid, great way to deal with heavy metals. And also, glyphosate, which we know is everywhere, as you mentioned. One more note here, Cynthia. When I was looking at some of the other countries out there and their health compared to our health, I'll share this and it's related to the toxicity piece.

[00:24:09] In the United States, we spend $4.6 trillion on healthcare every single year, which would be the fourth largest GDP in the world if it was a GDP. One out of every four dollars spent on healthcare is on diabetes, primarily type 2 diabetes. Our lifespan in the US is about 78 years or so on average. In Italy, for example, they have a longer lifespan than us. They have less diabetes, less obesity. And you think, “Okay, why is Italy so much healthier than us? Do they have more gyms?” Nope, they have a fraction of the gyms. “Do they walk more?” “Yes, they do walk more.” But what have they done that we haven't done? They have outlawed or they have strict restrictions on these toxins.

[00:24:53] Glyphosate 2016 got out of the food supply, red dye, yellow dye. We're allowing all this in our food supply. So, we got to keep those detox pathways open. We need to make those simple swaps because this is a huge issue these days.

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:25:05] Well, and I think, like I mentioned, when I read this section of the book, I was like, “This is accessible, it is informative. It is not scary because you're giving us strategies to be able to address this proactively.” And I would add, when I've been to countries in the European Union, people just tend to be more active. They're much more active, the portions are smaller, they don't work 24/7, they do take vacations. When were last in Italy, I was having a conversation with the gentleman that was taking us from one place to another. And I was asking him, “I said, obviously, you see a lot of Americans, you talk to a lot of Americans.” And he said, “The things that always stand out to me is that Americans, when they're talking, like, they're used to very fast meals. They walk into a restaurant, they want to get their menu, put their order in, finish their food and leave.”

[00:25:56] And he said, “We really look at meal times as a time to savor time with our loved ones, we don't rush through breakfast, we don't rush through dinner, we don't rush through lunch, we don't like working 24/7.” And it just seems like when I'm working with Americans that there seems to be this work life balance is nonexistent. And so, I think it's so many things, but absolutely the toxins are contributing. And quite frankly, I always say, we have to be our own best consumers. We have to question things we have to ask.

[00:26:26] In our neighborhood-- we're in a beautiful neighborhood and we use pet friendly products on our plants and our lawn. And my neighbors in most instances that have dogs are the same way, but many other people do not even with having pets. And so, when we walk through the neighborhood and people have that little sign in their yard and I always say to my husband, like, even if you avoid that yard, whatever product in their yard has trickled down the street, up the street, it's probably on our dog's paw. So, we've gone through this whole process. Now we wash our dog’s paws when we come in just to limit the exposure to them and as well as ourselves. But I think because we cannot see most of these toxins, people presume it is not problematic.

[00:27:07] And I'm here to tell you after this unintelligible [00:27:08] that I just had, it just reaffirmed for me why we need to be a little bit more conscientious, myself included, because I am guilty of sometimes taking receipts. Sometimes you have to. There's still stores that require you to have a receipt, you want to make a return. So, what I've learned is just making sure I hold like one little piece. I put it on the floor of my car. It goes into an unfortunately like a Ziploc bag. And I just have them there so they're all contained. But I agree with you, we take for granted that things were exposed to our environment are necessarily safe. And that's not always the case.

Ben Azadi: [00:27:39] Yeah, that's interesting about the dog. I also see those signs in my neighborhood where they've had it sprayed and I definitely avoid it. But I didn't think about that. Yeah, you're right. It's still going to the next house, then the next house and probably my house. And I don't wash my dog's paws before we come into the house. But now I'm going to do that. I think that's a great tip there because you're right, it's not good for them. But it's also tracking into your house, then you're breathing it in, not good for you. And you're right, spot on, Cynthia, about the toxicity thing because we can't see them. Tap water, for example, like the amount of these toxins, endocrine disrupting chemicals in tap water is insane. It's not safe for consumption. Yet still people, they drink tap water, it surprises me.

[00:28:20] Even like at a lot of restaurants when they give you that free water, that's tap water. You could smell it, it smells off. I don't drink that. I ask for flat water or sparkling water or something that's bottled. But there are traces of birth control pills in tap water. Thankfully now they're working on getting fluoride out of the tap water. But there are toxins in the tap water. So, even if you're not drinking it, the shower. So, a shower filter is a good idea. A reverse osmosis system in your house is a good idea. So, these are just simple ways to mitigate the damage. And one more thing I would add is your detergent. Those tide pods and those regular detergents, people are using the fabric softeners, very very toxic.

[00:28:59] And the cool thing, there are a lot of great companies now producing nontoxic detergents and that's an important thing. I would start there because we are essentially breathing in. If you're using a toxic detergent, you're breathing in pretty much 24/7 a day because you have your clothes on, your bed sheets. So, just making that simple swap to a nontoxic detergent. There's a lot out there, will go a long way for your health.

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, you know what's interesting is a few years ago someone said to me, “Oh, you know you have those dishwasher tabs that are in plastic.” And I said, “Yeah.” They said, “You realize that you then when you put that into the dish washer, you turn it on. The plastic is now coating your dishes and your silverware and your cups.” And I remember thinking like immediately that was the end of ever using any plastic dishwasher tablets. But what's interesting, my oldest is off at college and so I sent him to college with a clean washing machine product. And he said, “Mom, I never realized how stinky dryer sheets and fabric softener and most detergent is” because now he shares washers with everyone on his floor and dryers.

[00:30:08] And he was talking about the fact, like, even when I don't use those things. But because we're all sharing, there's six washers and six dryers for the dorm. He said, “Everyone's clothes are coated in the products because everyone's sharing the same machine.” And I was like, “Okay, well this is not a forever issue. So, that's not a big deal.” But the recognition that-- like my kids have grown up where things just don't have a scent. Like we don't really have any scents in the house. Although I do have a 17-year-old who likes cologne and that's a whole separate conversation for another day. [Ben Azadi laughs] But we've grown up with unscented products. And so, when you walk down the street, I'm sure when you walk your dog and you smell someone's dryer going and you're like, “yuck.”

[00:30:50] Just to help people build awareness of the fact that we're just inundated by fragrances and chemicals, many of which we can do without. I use wool dryer balls, so I don't have issues with static. And when I want them to have-- I don't want them maybe to smell like nothing. You can put essential oils on them and that's completely safe to do that. But the water piece is definitely a big thing. When I travel now, I try to order glass water bottles to my hotel. Like now that we have Uber Eats, which makes life so much easier, I just order like five or six bottles of water. And then that way I have them and I don't get stuck where I'm like so thirsty and I don't have any other options.

Ben Azadi: [00:31:25] That's smart. And you know something else you can do when you travel that I just found out from my friend Warren Phillips, is that when you go to an airport and you're checking, you're going through TSA, they tell you to get rid of any liquids. But if you came with like a full bottle that's sealed of Mountain Valley in glass or just any water in glass and you want to go through TSA with it, you tell them that it's medical grade water and they'll scan it and let you go through with it. They'll just scan it and make sure it's safe and let you go through with it. Most airports in the US will let you go through with it.

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:31:57] I need to try that. I'm traveling next week. I'm going to absolutely-- [crosstalk]

Ben Azadi: [00:32:00] Try it, you let me know.

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:32:01] Because I usually get stuck in the airport that has no place to fill up a water bottle so that I'm stuck buying- [crosstalk]

Ben Azadi: [00:32:07] Plastic, yeah.

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:32:07] -a plastic water bottle so that I don't get dehydrated while I travel. Anyway, we got off on a little bit of a tangent, but that's okay. Let's talk a little bit about nutrition and fasting even if someone is not currently intermittent fasting, eating less often, whether it's for digestive rest or someone's undergoing a longer fast. Let's talk a little bit about macronutrients, because I think there are still people that can benefit from hearing this multiple times. Why? Ketogenic diets, as an example, can be very therapeutic, especially for those of us that are not metabolically healthy.

Ben Azadi: [00:32:40] Yeah, exactly. That's the name of the game, to lower insulin, lower inflammation. Keto is a great way to do that, even fasting, if you want to use a fasting as a tool and I have a chapter on keto, a chapter on fasting as well. There is that study that came out from 2022 that showed about 93% of Americans are metabolically unhealthy, 93% that's almost every single American, that's 93/100 people. It's pretty remarkable. And in the book, I call them being in a keto deficiency, which essentially means they're in a fat burning deficiency. They forgot how to burn fat. Yes, keto can be a diet. You can look at it as a diet. However, I don't view it that way. I look at keto as a metabolic process, not a diet. And there's nothing new about keto.

[00:33:24] It's just nuanced or new to some people. Same thing with fasting. You teach this, Cynthia. These are ancient healing strategies. They've been around forever, for as long as humans have existed. And when you're stuck burning sugar like 93% of Americans, you're going to age rapidly. It's one of the fastest ways to age yourself. And the reason why you're burning sugar, by the way, is because you're eating high carbohydrate foods, probably processed carbohydrates, and you're snacking and grazing all day long. You're teaching this naturally fat burning metabolism to stay stuck burning sugar. There's nothing wrong with using sugar and glucose as a fuel source, unless you're only using sugar and glucose as a fuel source. It will elevate your levels of insulin.

[00:34:09] And I make the case in the book that when you have high levels of insulin, this is the first domino to fall that will trigger metabolic disease. It will trigger symptoms such as you start to gain weight, you start to have brain fog, your blood pressure starts to increase, and then it's prediabetes and diabetes. And once you're diagnosed with diabetes, it opens up a whole world of metabolic diseases like cancer and heart disease and kidney failures, neuropathy, etc. But it's the insulin.

[00:34:37] And what's interesting about the insulin piece is that I found studies like the Whitehall Study II that showed you could have full blown insulin resistance, hyperinsulinemia on average for 6 to 14 years without your fasting blood sugars changing at all or even your A1c because your pancreas is so busy producing massive amounts of insulin to clear the excess glucose until it cannot. Until you go deaf. Those receptor sites go deaf to the screams of insulin, then there's a huge increase in blood sugars. Then you're diagnosed with prediabetes or diabetes. So, the most important test you can get done for your metabolism is a blood test called a fasting insulin blood test. It's not typically taken. Conventional doctors don't usually run this test because there's not a medication to lower a fasting insulin or your insulin. There's medication for glucose.

[00:35:28] So they'll measure the glucose, but you want to see your fasting insulin in the single digits, ideally between 3 and 6. If you could get your fasting insulin between 3 and 6, you are no longer burning sugar, you are metabolically flexible. you have insulin sensitivity. Here's the crazy thing. I know you know this, Cynthia, but that lab report for a fasting insulin is between 3 and 25, sometimes 3 and 28. So if you're 11 or 17 or 22 on that report, most conventional doctors, if they even order it for you, would not flag it but that's insulin resistance. And they'll say, “Well, we'll monitor it, come back next year.” You don't want to do that. You want to be proactive and get it down. So how do you do that? You lower your carbohydrate intake, especially processed carbs. You eliminate the snacking.

[00:36:12] Every time you snack, you raise glucose and insulin and you eat more protein and fat because out of the three macronutrients, it is carbohydrates that will raise blood insulin, more than any of the others. Protein is a moderate response. Fat barely even moves the needle on insulin. Simple thing and then eventually, if you want to bring in fasting, it's another great way to lower insulin as well. But I would start with the insulin piece.

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:36:37] Well, and I find it fascinating because I think I've been beating the insulin drum for about 10 years. And I remember probably five years ago, a physician saying to me, I don't even know how to interpret it. And I looked at them and I said, “This is not rocket science.” It's the first biomarker that starts to dysregulate way before glucose. And I would argue that if someone's fasting glucose is between 90 and 99, I learned this from Robert Lustig, you are at 30% greater risk of developing diabetes, so that's not even benign. So, your fasting glucose may not yet be over 100, but if it's between 90 and 99 fasted, that is a poor prognostic indicator.

[00:37:15] And I remind people all the time that, if your physician, nurse practitioner, PA etc., is not making a big deal about fasting insulin and/or is not looking at your fasting glucose of 98 and thinking that's a problem, it's probably time to find a new provider. And there are plenty of us out there that are far more progressive in terms of how we view these metabolic health markers. You know, the other one that I think a great deal about is uric acid. I know that uric acid, we've had lots of-- both of us have had shared experts on discussing this because uric acid is another byproduct of this dysregulation of glucose and insulin sensitivity. And so, people that have gout, my patients in Baltimore used to call it gouge because it's so painful.

[00:38:00] Helping them understand like that is one of many ways that it may show up that you're starting to become less insulin sensitive. And I would finally say many years ago when I was a new nurse practitioner, a friend of mine was doing his postdoc and so he was a physician trained in Australia, was finishing up his Ph.D. in the United States. And this is in 2002. He said, “Cynthia, I don't know what it is about you Americans. You do a terrible job managing diabetes and even worse managing asthma.” And this is an ICU, a doctor saying this. But the point being that even back then he was like, “You just wait till people get full blown diabetes before you do anything before you intervene.” So, they call it the silent killer, just like they say that about high blood pressure.

[00:38:45] But for a lot of individuals, they don't realize, they really don't realize that they're, you know, putting themselves at peril and at risk. I know that you have an amazing coaching program. What are some of the other labs that you generally will advocate for metabolic health that you want your clients looking at?

Ben Azadi: [00:39:02] Yeah, that doctor you just referenced in 2002 was spot-on. And nothing has changed unfortunately, it's so crazy. And once you're diagnosed with diabetes, here's a truth that most people don't understand. It's rare to die from diabetes. People are dying with diabetes, but not from diabetes. It's what the diabetes leads to, right? The heart disease. What happened to my dad, I saw it firsthand. You dramatically increase your risk of dying from these sorts of diseases when you have diabetes. A1c is a good marker. I mentioned that insulin is first and you talk about this, you just said you've been preaching this for 10 years, but the A1C is a valuable marker.

[00:39:38] It's looking at the three-month average of your blood glucose and ideally you want to see that under 5.2%, if you're around 5.7 to 6.4, you're considered prediabetic, which is a problem, by the way. And then 6.5% or higher, you're considered full on diabetic. And I found a study that I put in metabolic freedom that showed if your A1c is at 7.5%, which is diabetic, every year, it's at that level. The study says we estimate 100 days come off your lifespan. So, if it's at that level for 15 years, I did the math, it's four years off your lifespan. This is because when you have sugar glucose elevated in your body, it's destructive. It's a toxin to your body when it's elevated, it depletes nitric oxide, which is a very important cell signaling gaseous molecule.

[00:40:25] One of the main roles of nitric oxide is vasodilation, opening up the blood vessels, allowing blood flow nutrients, oxygen to deliver to tissues effectively. When you have high levels of blood sugar, it strips nitric oxide, which creates vasoconstriction, the narrowing of your blood vessels, which makes your heart pump harder. What does that mean? Your blood pressure goes up. This is the number one cause of blood pressure. Not the salt, it's the sugar. So, there's a lot of damage that starts to happen. So A1c is great. Inflammatory markers like hsCRP is great. Homocysteine is great. Personally, I want to see my hsCRP under 0.5 and it usually is. My fasting insulin is usually around 3.3. My A1c is usually 5.1, Homocysteine, I want to see in the single digits another great inflammatory marker.

[00:41:15] Even though, and I think you would agree, Cynthia, fasting insulin is not typically looked at as an inflammatory marker, but it's indirectly one of the best inflammatory markers. Would you agree?

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:41:25]I would agree. And what's interesting to me is people will say to me, “Oh, my fasting glucose is fine. My fasting insulin must be fine.” And then we'll check their fasting insulin, and it's 24. I'm like, “Okay. There's a lot going on beneath the surface that perhaps you were unaware of,” but I think it can be slow and insidious. And that's where people get accustomed to how they're feeling day to day, week to week, without the realization that, if they compare themselves to five, ten years ago, their energy levels are off. They don't have the stamina. They don't have the strength they once have. They're not sleeping as well. They don't have the motivation to get off the couch, to go to the gym.

[00:42:03] I think it's slow and insidious in most instances. So, we just aren't keeping it on our radar. The other thing that I would add to that is I have another family member who will remain nameless, who happened to share their labs with me, and their hemoglobin A1c was 8. And the first thing I said was, “Did your doctor talk to you about diabetes?” And this individual said, “No.” And I said,- [crosstalk]

Ben Azadi: [00:42:26] Wow.

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:42:26] -you have diabetes. And then the next thing that we talked about was, there are some good medications along with lifestyle. I think you need to be very proactive at the stage of life you're in. And this individual, who will remain nameless, was not willing to consider medication. I said, “Well, then you need to do drastic lifestyle changes immediately. Like, immediately you're heading in the wrong direction.” And there was a whole constellation of symptoms that this individual was also experiencing. And the reason why I say this individual is because I'm trying to be respectful of these family members that would not want me, per se, to necessarily share this information in case I have other family members listening to the podcast.

Ben Azadi: [00:43:04] Yeah, no, I get that. I respect that. And that's crazy that the doctor never said that they were diabetic.-- [crosstalk]

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:43:10] I was like, “You have diabetes? Hello.”

Ben Azadi: [00:43:12] That's like, well into diabetes. I mean, 6.5 is where you're diagnosed. This is 8. That didn't happen as you just said, that didn't happen in a year or five. That was over the last 15, 20 years that happened. So, if this family member would have gotten a fasting insulin 20 years ago, this would have never happened. Einstein said “Intellectuals solve problems, geniuses prevent them.” One of the best ways [Cynthia laughs] that you could become a genius is to get a fasting insulin to be proactive and not reactive.

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:43:41] Yeah, I mean, I check mine. I probably ask four times a year to have mine checked along with other markers. And mine is usually 2, maybe 3. I don't think I've ever seen it higher than that. But I do think that, years of eating less often as I like or gentle digestive rest and/or intermittent fasting has definitely fine-tuned that fasting insulin for me as it has for many of your clients and many of my patients.

Ben Azadi: [00:44:05] Yeah, [crosstalk].

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:44:06] Yeah, absolutely. Let's talk a little bit about. [laughs] This is a question that you actually sent to me, which I actually appreciated. You're certainly very outspoken about seed oils, calling them harmful to cellular health. What's your perspective about how previous administrations organizations have really talked about vegetable oils being heart healthy? Does that make you incredibly sad? Does it frustrate you, making vegetable oils part of a heart healthy diet?

Ben Azadi: [00:44:38] What's interesting about the vegetable oil conversation is it's that it's gone mainstream. Cynthia, you and I have been talking about bad fats for a very long time. When I first discovered how bad they were for you, this is like 2015. It was really remarkable because so many people consume these fats and it's in about 80% of our food supply. And there's a lot of confusion, first and foremost out there, because you're right, you have the American Heart Association putting their stamp of approval. You have even people in our alternative holistic functional health space saying they're perfectly healthy for you, here's why. Because when we look at the studies out there that show seed oils are not harmful, they're actually going to be super healthy for you, those studies are correct. And those studies are done on unprocessed seed oils.

[00:45:26] There's a big difference between what's in our food supply, which is processed seed oils, versus the unprocessed. I actually think omega 6 fats, seed oils that are organic, cold press, sourced the right way, never heated, I think they're really anti-inflammatory, great for cell membrane health in small amounts. But that's not what people are eating, they're eating processed seed oil. So, if we just simply understand the chemical structure of these fats, it'll make sense, right? They're called polyunsaturated fatty acids. The word poly, it means many. That means these polyunsaturated fats contain many double bonds. The more double bonds a fat has, the more reactive and unstable it is. It attracts oxygen, pressure and heat, which is not good for this fat. It damages it. Okay, then let's ask the question, how are they processed? Oxygen, pressure and heat.

[00:46:23] The three things that damage it is the way they're processed, not to mention all the other chemicals that are put into it. Go watch how canola oil is made. It's one of these bad fats. Then it's put into a bottle and that's not where it ends. We then fry with it, we heat it up, we refry with it. It's already damaged before we even start doing that. And it starts to oxidize even more. They're very unstable. They start to accumulate in our cell membranes, mitochondrial membranes. And studies show half-life of these fats, two years, 680 days that means if we stopped eating them today, two years later, half of them will remain in the body fat, in the cell membranes, mitochondrial membrane creating inflammation. And Dr. Martin Grunfeld and I want to credit Dr. Cate Shanahan here because I got this study from her book Dark Calories. So, I want to give credit to her.

[00:47:11] Dr. Martin Grunfeld did a study where he analyzed French fries cooked in vegetable oils. And he was looking at the aldehyde content produced after frying these French fries in the oil. Aldehydes of course are carcinogenic cancer causing when you smoke tobacco cigarettes, that's what is also increased aldehydes. And he showed essentially one French fry cooked in vegetable oil is equivalent to a tobacco cigarette smoked. I want you to think about that. If you've never smoked a tobacco cigarette in your life, but you've consumed 10,000 French fries, you essentially have smoked 10,000 tobacco cigarettes. Not only that, if you have children and you're giving them French fries, chicken fingers, all these fried foods, even those goldfish crackers, it has these oils.

[00:48:00] You're essentially giving them tobacco cigarettes in form of aldehyde content. They're inflammatory. Still, I believe it to this day. It's the process that are bad for you. So, canola, corn, cottonseed oil, sunflower, soybean, safflower oil, rice bran, grapeseed oil. These are all the polyunsaturated fats, vegetable oils. Canola is called rapeseed oil. For the UK listeners. Instead, we want to use saturated fats. There are no double bonds, zero. They're stable. You could fry with them, you could heat them up that's going to be butter, coconut oil, ghee, beef tallow, duck fat, and even monounsaturated fats are safer. It's one double bond, which is avocado oil and olive oil. Doing that simple swap, you'll notice a difference in a matter of days. And in Chapter 4 of Metabolic Freedom, I go deep into these processed foods and I go deeper into the vegetable oil conversation.

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:48:52] Yeah, And I think it's an important conversation because you are right. There is this nuance to seed oils that there are definitely organic, cold press, super high-quality small containers of some of the seed oils, like safflower or sunflower, that in those specific examples are fine. But what we're really speaking to is the processed food industry variations and/or thinking about, you go to McDonald's, Burger King, etc., maybe once a month you're having those fries, and you want to enjoy your fries, but just to have in the back of your mind that the more often that oil is heated and reheated, it actually makes it more inflammatory, creates more oxidative stress.

[00:49:33] There was a rabbit study that I used to talk about quite a bit in some of my speaking gigs, and it talked about how before it's cooked once, cooked multiple times, and how much more each time it is cooked and exposed to heat, it further leads to more oxidative stress, more inflammation. And then they had animal studies that went along with it. And it just suggests that, if you're going to go out to eat, be conscientious. I know I've eaten out with Ben, and Ben will just, he has this little card he talks about how he's allergic to seed oils. I remember that event we both spoke at and your meal looked completely different. We had the same meal.

Ben Azadi: [00:50:11] Yeah.

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:50:12] But because I didn't think to say, “Hey, what are you cooking this in?” My expensive buffalo steak, I think was probably cooked in a lot of seed oils because you had this beautiful steak and I think they had grilled vegetables for you. And I had the same thing on my plate, but it looked very different.

Ben Azadi: [00:50:27] Yeah, I remember that event. I won't name the event to just because it's a great event. But it was an event where there were experts that were talking about the dangers of seed oils. And then there was a speaker dinner and a VIP dinner, and the food was cooked in seed oils. It's insane. So, you have to, you just said, Cynthia, tell them you're allergic. They'll listen to you. You're not lying. We all have an allergic reaction, an inflammatory reaction to these seed oils. I don't want to take the hit. And I'm sure I'm getting it somewhere. And you can do a lot of things right where your body could deal with a little bit of these inflammatory markers. It's like hormesis. I'm okay with that. But the amount that we're getting, that's the problem. There's a big push now.

[00:51:04] Now, Beef tallow fries we hear about like Steak ‘n Shake.

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:51:06] MASA chips.

Ben Azadi: [00:51:08] Yeah. MASA chips is, they're legit. MASA chips.

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:51:10] They're amazing.

Ben Azadi: [00:51:11] They're amazing. They actually are organic. They use beef tallow, no vegetable oils. But I want to caution your audience because these companies are going to hop on the seed oil free bandwagon. And just because they're saying it's cooked in 100% beef tallow doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't have seed oils. I'll give you an example now I will say, MASA, they're safe, they're legit. You could go with them.

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:51:34] Yes, absolutely.

Ben Azadi: [00:51:34] But Steak ‘n Shake, we're hearing about these billboards and TV commercials. They're using beef tallow now. Okay, true. But I asked them, are the fries precooked? What are the ingredients in the fries before they're cooked in the beef tallow? And it has soybean oil, canola oil. It already has vegetable oil before they cook it in the beef tallow. But they're saying that it's cooked in beef tallow to get all the customers-- [crosstalk]

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:51:58] Greenwashing.

Ben Azadi: [00:51:58] Exactly. But it has seed oil. So, you have to make sure you ask them if there are any seed oils. And when you say you're allergic, they will find out. So that is the key, not a preference. But you're actually allergic, they'll find out for you.

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:52:11] Oh, that's so interesting. You're right. There's a degree of greenwashing that will go on because people are now looking for seed oil free alternatives. And I just interviewed the, one of the cofounders of MASA. So, I know because their chips are handmade the entire process, which just blows my mind-- [crosstalk]

Ben Azadi: [00:52:27] They are amazing.

Ben Azadi: [00:52:27] Because there's nothing, there’s nothing [laughs] that's handmade nowadays, except they are indeed handmade. Ben, to end the conversation, let's talk about a relatively unpleasant topic, but one that I think needs to be discussed. Do you think the mainstream health and fitness industry is too focused on profits over people's wellbeing? Do you think that there are some brands that are still very authentic and transparent and honest versus there are other companies that it's a little bit of smoke and mirrors.

[00:52:59] And I say this in the most loving way possible because there are people that will pop up on my feed on different platforms and I'll check things out and either they're just trying to like convince everyone that they need one specific treatment, this one potion pill or powder is going to fix all the things. But do you think there's a lack of integrity with some individuals and the wellness industry?

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:53:21] I think unfortunately there are some players out there that don't have our health as their main goal, but more of their profit. And look, I'm not against capitalism, I'm not against building your business and earning some income. But it should come as a result of your positive impact, actually caring about making a difference, not putting money before that. So, when I hear or talk about a certain product, of course, whatever it is that will have all these claims, but they don't really talk about going upstream and they're not talking about cellular health and hormones and metabolism and actually removing the interference. And it's just like a, a quick fix sort of thing. It's a red flag for me. Maybe it's good, maybe it's a good way to get you kick started. But we need to talk about root cause.

[00:54:08] And if it's not talking about root cause, I would personally avoid it and I would find someone program a resource that's talking about root cause health. Symptoms are not the issue. There are thousands of symptoms out there. You could have five, you could have a hundred. It's not your problem, it's a result of the problem. It's your body's check engine light. It's actually be thankful for your symptoms. It's your body's way of showing you “Hey, something you're eating, something in your environment, something you're thinking is throwing you off homeostasis.” And when I see programs or practitioners just focusing on the symptoms, let's take care of the symptom, it's a red flag. But then there's amazing people, amazing companies talking about the cause. Let's find out what this interference is, let's remove it. Then the body will heal itself.

[00:54:48] I love when I hear people talk about not me healing you, but allowing you to heal yourself. It's not the supplement, it's not the pill, it's not the diet, it's not the program, it's removing the interference and letting your own body heal itself. So, you know with that, there's good players, there's bad players. Unfortunately for the regular audience out there, it's hard to determine that and there's a lot of information and misinformation. But I want to throw the question to you because I'm curious to hear your thoughts as well, Cynthia.

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:55:16] Yeah, I feel fortunate because most of the people that I interact with the people I consider to be real friends and people that are doing really good work, they are very focused on root cause, determination, digging deeper, being thoughtful. For me, I think some of the red flags are fear mongering. Anyone that's fear mongering or making you feel like you're making a decision from a mindset of scarcity or people who say their one product is going to cure everything.

[00:55:46] I'll use an example, obviously the perimenopause menopause space is my niche. And if someone tries to tell you that it's, one potion, pill or powder that's going to fix everything over the lifestyle-targeted supplements, being very conscientious, not to overwhelm, but being like these are things we know based on research can be helpful along with hormones, if that's appropriate for you. That is very different. But there are people who sometimes come out of left field and they're like, “My exercise program is going to fix everything. Okay, well, if it is in conjunction with lifestyle measures, talking about the physiology of the body, what's going on, or having really good resources. Otherwise, there's just a lot of noise in the space. And I think women in particular, especially middle-aged women, are susceptible to different types of strategies because they feel like they have lost an understanding of their bodies.

[00:56:41] They feel like the things they used to do in their 20s and 30s are no longer working. They look in the mirror and they feel like they're looking at another version of themselves, not the version they want to be looking at. And I'm not just talking about the physicality. They're just tired, they're exhausted, they don't feel vibrant, they don't feel like they're cognitively as sharp. And so, I think that can be a very vulnerable population. And so, for that reason, I tend to be super protective. But I think this is an important conversation so that people are properly vetting. Not just individuals they're purchasing from, but people that they're listening to. Who are you consuming? Who are you choosing to listen to on a podcast or read a book or go to an event where someone is speaking.

[00:57:24] I always say, like “I like to look for the leaders, the people that are in very much in alignment with that methodology of being thoughtful with their interaction. No scare tactics, being research, evidence based, which I think is very important.” I always say, “You can get into analysis paralysis even that can happen to me.” While I was writing my second book, there were definitely moments where I was like, this book is never going to end [laughs] when you just kind of get caught up in a loop. But I agree with you. There are definitely good people that are out there, but you just have to do your homework. And I say that as a middle-aged woman myself. If someone no longer appeals to me on social media, it's okay to unfollow or just mute them entirely.

[00:58:01] It's totally okay. You don't have to feel like you are inundated by negativity or the wrong type of messaging. Things that don't appeal to you as an individual. And for each one of us it might be a little bit different.

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:58:11] Yeah, well said. You said something really interesting about in person conferences. I think you could tell a lot about a person when you-- [crosstalk]

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:58:17] Yes.

Ben Azadi: [00:58:18] Not just follow them online and see their online persona, but when you meet them in person, whether you're seeing them on stage or just seeing how they interact with other people or yourself. So that could be a great way to assess somebody if you really vibe with their personality. Go meet them in person because sometimes you'll be let down, sometimes you'll be fired and want to learn more about that person. But in person is where it's at to really understand somebody's vibe.

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:58:41] I agree. I always use the example of Joe Dispenza. I had the honor of speaking on stage with him and some other people and backstage there were some very high-profile people there that they wanted nothing to do with anybody there, but he could not have been more gracious-

Ben Azadi: [00:58:57] Wow.

Cynthia Thurlow: [00:58:57] -and more kind and just his energy. In fact, I approached him and I said, “Would it be okay if we took a photo together?” He said, “Absolutely.” I said, “Well, I'm very respectful of your space.” And he said, “No, no. I'm happy to do that.” And it just reaffirmed for me, like even where we are in time and space, sometimes I may fan geek a little bit, but I try to be just respectful. And I think when you're in those situations where maybe you've just spoken and people approach you and maybe they're just to say, “Hey, I'm a podcast listener. Really enjoyed your talk.” And sometimes it's someone who really just feels a connection and wants to connect more and connect with you.

[00:59:32] I think that I just feel like I have a huge responsibility to show up as myself. And so, I'm always very gracious, as I know you are, because I think that's important. I think that there's nothing worse than someone you look up to in an industry and you meet them and you're like, “I don't think this person just had a bad day.” I think this is how they really are. They're not what they appear to be on social media. They're actually quite different. But thankfully, that's been the minority of experiences I've had personally.

Ben Azadi: Same. But it does happen. It does happen. That's good to know about Dr. Joe Dispenza because I love his work. So, I'm glad he's like that in person.

Cynthia Thurlow: [01:00:00] No, he was so great. And just his energy, everything about him, it was very open. He wasn't like, just taking a picture with me and like going off to a corner. He was actually engaging with everyone and talking to people and he was exactly what I had hoped he would be like. And more than that. Well, Ben, this is always such a pleasure connecting with you and talking about your new book. And I think I was one of the first people that actually had my hands on a copy of Metabolic Freedom. So, I'm going to end it right here.

Ben Azadi: [01:00:28] Yeah, you got a galley copy? Look at that.

Cynthia Thurlow: [01:00:30] It's right next to me.

Ben Azadi: [01:00:31] Yes, [Cynthia laughs] I finally got the author, the author copy. So, you got the galley copy. Yeah, and I also have this too. Look at that. [Cynthia laughs] Yeah, Two beautiful books here the [unintelligible [01:00:39] Metabolic Freedom.

Cynthia Thurlow: [01:00:41] It's hard to believe that was over three years ago. Like, it just feels like it goes by like that. So, please let listeners know how to connect with the outside of the podcast, how to purchase your new book, and if they weren't already acquainted with your work, how to connect with you online.

Ben Azadi: [01:00:57] Yeah, well, thank you, Cynthia. I'm honored to come back. You said the fifth, this is my fifth time on the show.

Cynthia Thurlow: [01:01:01] I think you might be the first five timer guest.

Ben Azadi: [01:01:05] Wow, what a blessing. That's super cool. I had a great time today. Hopefully this is valuable for those who watched and listen. So, the book's out this week. It's called Metabolic Freedom. And Cynthia Thurlow gave me a fantastic endorsement for the book. Thank you, Cynthia. Our mutual friend, Dr. Minnie Powells wrote the forward. The book is split into two parts. The first half is about the main causes, problems to metabolic disease. Second half is the solutions and then it's all wrapped together. And how could you apply this with a 30-day plan? Because information is one thing, but how do you actually apply it so that the 30-day plan to apply it for beginners for those that are advanced, there's some fat burning recipes in there as well. The book is available on Audible, Kindle, Hardcover. I did narrate the Audible myself.

[01:01:47] Its tough one to do, but I did it. [Cynthia laughs] And you could get the book this week over at metabolicfreedombook.com. If you get it there-- It is available everywhere, all bookstores. But if you get it there, you'll get a free course that I built out on the metabolism, 12 lessons and exclusive interviews. One of those interviews is with Cynthia Thurlow that we did for this course. Amazing interview we did for the course along with Dr. Jason Fung, Dr. Daniel Pompa and Megan Ramos and Cynthia Thurlow. So, it's metabolicfreedombook.com to go get the book. I will say Chapter 10 is my favorite chapter in the book. Make sure you read that or listen to that part of the book because I think it'll change your life forever. I might write an entire book based off of Chapter 10.

Cynthia Thurlow: [01:02:30] I love it. And for those of you that know how metabolic health is near and dear to my heart, this is going to be one of those books you're going to put right alongside Ben Bikman’s book, Why We Get Sick and Jason Fung's books. So, definitely a book you want to have in your bookshelf.

Ben Azadi: [01:02:46] Thank you, Cynthia.

Cynthia Thurlow: [01:02:49] If you love this podcast episode, please leave a rating and review. Subscribe and tell a friend.

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